Want to Understand Anti Gun People?

[rpenmanparker]

Anyone who talks about an "inordinate fear of confiscation" probably views confiscation with anticipation rather than dread.

This is so funny. In your world view it is okay to accuse antis of inordinate fear of guns and armed persons, but not to apply the same inordinate fear description regarding confiscation and subjugation to supporters of gun ownership. My guess is that the chances of confiscation and subjugation are of the same order of magnitude (vanishingly small) as the chances of antis being harmed by guns. Both sides are expressing irrational attitudes. Your lack of understanding of the mindsets of ALL the players in this unfolding debacle will make it impossible for you to realize your goals. If you can’t understand what you really represent and empathize with the genuine emotions of the opposition, you will never see any progress toward a reolution of the conflict. Brute force will not carry the day for you.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Yes, what am I going to believe, my lying eyes or your narrative?

My narrative, of course. Birth of a Nation and Mein Kampf indeed. I know a troll when I read one.

 

[DeepSouth]

I could be wrong, but from what I have seen in my experience most “anti-gun” people have not put enough thought into it to know why they’re anti-gun. They seem to be making it up as they go along more times than not.

Therefore such people may be convinced by reason and logic IF you can get the overly emotional element out of the conversation. Now if you do convince such people, the next time they watch the news talking about dying children the logic may very well go away.
In my experience the best way to combat that is with actual shooting experience, the second best is to bring the emotional elements back into the conversation once they start seeing how illogical gun control is. Explain how people try to Use emotion to pass irrelevant and illogical laws and regulations.

Then their are those that are simply not willing to have that “national conversation” in a rational/reasonable manner. I don’t have much “high road” to say about them, generally I just avoid them.

 

[Deanimator]

My narrative, of course. Birth of a Nation and Mein Kampf indeed. I know a troll when I read one.

Then you must read your own stuff.

Like I said, how dare I contradict your narrative with actual experience.

But hey, I just imagined that anti-gunner telling me that he wasn't so sure that the Holocaust was a BAD thing.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Then you must read your own stuff.

Like I said, how dare I contradict your narrative with actual experience.

But hey, I just imagined that anti-gunner telling me that he wasn't so sure that the Holocaust was a BAD thing.

Surely you don’t think that example is representative or even commonly encountered...or do you? Anecdotes do not constitute data.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I could be wrong, but from what I have seen in my experience most “anti-gun” people have not put enough thought into it to know why they’re anti-gun. They seem to be making it up as they go along more times than not.

Therefore such people may be convinced by reason and logic IF you can get the overly emotional element out of the conversation. Now if you do convince such people, the next time they watch the news talking about dying children the logic may very well go away.
In my experience the best way to combat that is with actual shooting experience, the second best is to bring the emotional elements back into the conversation once they start seeing how illogical gun control is. Explain how people try to Use emotion to pass irrelevant and illogical laws and regulations.

Then their are those that are simply not willing to have that “national conversation” in a rational/reasonable manner. I don’t have much “high road” to say about them, generally I just avoid them.

Your post is right on. What you expressed suggests what is required to make some progress on this issue.

 

[Labguy47]

I’m a Harley ridin, beer chugging, red neck, lab tech. And yet I’ve taken 6 nurses, all college educated, with families and taught them the basics of proper gun handling. 4 of the 6 went on to get a CCW. They hang out and shoot together on ladies night.

The hardest for me was a rape victim, she really struggled with it. The manager was really cool about it and called in another female who could relate to her. We where there long after closing. Probably only shot 20 rounds total. The next Saturday was a different matter. I loaded mags and both ladies shot close to 700 rounds each.

I want to explain why I shared these experiences. Most anti gunners are driven by one emotion, fear.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I’m a Harley ridin, beer chugging, red neck, lab tech. And yet I’ve taken 6 nurses, all college educated, with families and taught them the basics of proper gun handling. 4 of the 6 went on to get a CCW. They hang out and shoot together on ladies night.

The hardest for me was a rape victim, she really struggled with it. The manager was really cool about it and called in another female who could relate to her. We where there long after closing. Probably only shot 20 rounds total. The next Saturday was a different matter. I loaded mags and both ladies shot close to 700 rounds each.

I want to explain why I shared these experiences. Most anti gunners are driven by one emotion, fear.

Thank you. And my point is that is the same emotion driving many of the most avid 2A supporters. You read that here all the time. Fear of confiscation and then fear of subjugation. So then fear is a common bond between antis and 2A supporters that should be leveraged to bring about a resolution to our gun control problems.

 

[G'dale Mike]

The challenge for us is to help people understand that guns are legitimate tools and that not everyone that enjoys them is a homicidal maniac. The latter is the only example of gun owners that are seen on "news" reports.

Many theories of people like Freud have ascended and then fallen into disfavor over the years. I would not want to put all my eggs in that basket, or John Harvey Kellogg's, or John Brinkley's.

I’m sorry, but in my experience, it is a waste of time and brain cells to attempt to discuss second amendment with anti second amendment folks You cannot have a discussion with irrational people. The facts are on our side, but facts do not matter nor sway these people. I have come to the conclusion that they are quite mentally ill and incapable of processing information. Good luck and when or if you ever change an anti second amendment’s opinion of firearm ownership, please post the circumstances surrounding the event. Maybe we could start a “conversion” thread for just such stories for us all to see what approach and techniques work

 

[WrongHanded]

Most that I've met fall in to one or both of these categories:

They believe they are safe in their little world, and that scenario "X" could never happen to them. Therefore, they don't need a gun, so you don't either.

They very much want to be safe, but want someone else to ensure their safety rather than take that responsibility upon their own shoulders. That would be the government's job. So if they don't need a gun because the government is keeping them safe, neither do you because the government is keeping you safe too.

Simple, right?

 

[Tommygunn]

And on the flip side don’t many gun enthusiasts display an inordinate fear of confiscation, the deep state, Armageddon, and subjugation if deprived of their guns? What foolishness are they projecting?

I don't think fear of gun confiscation is necessarily over-blown, it has happened. It happened in New York City in the 1990s under then Mayor Dinkins, the path being paved a generation before by gun registration laws. In recent months California Congressman Eric Swalwell has argued for confiscating "assault rifles," intimation on social media that even nukes could be used (in fairness he walked that absurd statement back, but ..... ).

The "deep state" only means we've become a nation of unaccountable bureaucrats placed in charge of passing regulations that couldn't be supported by politicians because they need the vote. The E. P. A. Is a famous example. But deep state is an ambiguous term and could be something different to others. I suspect Fox Mulder and Lt. Columbo might express very different conclusions there.

As for armageddon, what do you mean? The end of the world? Another ambiguous term that depends on perspective. People in the Midwest are experiencing very bad flooding ..... perhaps, for them, a type of armageddon .... but as bad as it is, not the end of the world.

The founders recommended being very wary of government.... comparing our liberty to a jewel that might be endangered by anyone approaching it.
Wise advice there.

 

[Deanimator]

Surely you don’t think that example is representative or even commonly encountered...or do you? Anecdotes do not constitute data.

Oh, and the DOZENS of instances of me being called a racial slur which I'm not allowed to repeat here. And the similar misogynistic, anti-Semitic and homophobic comments I've heard over the decades.

I'm sure there's somebody who'd tell the family of Emmett Till, "But your story is just an 'anecdote'."

 

[rust collector]

I’m sorry, but in my experience, it is a waste of time and brain cells to attempt to discuss second amendment with anti second amendment folks You cannot have a discussion with irrational people. The facts are on our side, but facts do not matter nor sway these people. I have come to the conclusion that they are quite mentally ill and incapable of processing information. Good luck and when or if you ever change an anti second amendment’s opinion of firearm ownership, please post the circumstances surrounding the event. Maybe we could start a “conversion” thread for just such stories for us all to see what approach and techniques work

I am sorry for your experience. I'm not out to convert folks, but to remind them that there are many aspects to the issue. People want to be reasonable, but when they are a part of groupthink because they are piled together in cities and must rely on others, the shift in perspective should not be surprising. One on one helps them to open up a bit, and a range session at least gives them a realization that shooting isn't the same as killing. It may not be right for them, but that doesn't mean it's not right for everyone.

 

[boom boom]

Surely you don’t think that example is representative or even commonly encountered...or do you? Anecdotes do not constitute data.

Anecdotes do constitute data--it is just more difficult to generalize from an n of one or two. However, even one instance can indicate that a particular theory is wrong and needs revision. There is even a field of statistics that studies rare events that are not amenable to standard statistical analyses.

 

[Deanimator]

Anecdotes do constitute data--it is just more difficult to generalize from an n of one or two. However, even one instance can indicate that a particular theory is wrong and needs revision. There is even a field of statistics that studies rare events that are not amenable to standard statistical analyses.

But you can make reasonable inferences from anecdotal data.

To some people, you can't make the general statement that saltwater crocodiles are dangerous to humans without feeding several hundred people to saltwater crocodiles with control groups substituting stacks of cinder blocks and Siamese cats respectively.

But there are people who don't WANT to know things which contradict their chosen narrative.

 

[Bill Raby]

You are way off base.

Birth of a Nation and Mein Kampf do not represent the views of the average person that is afraid of guns. But it is EXACTLY the attitude of those that are pushing the anti-gun legislation.

 

[Deanimator]

Birth of a Nation and Mein Kampf do not represent the views of the average person that is afraid of guns. But it is EXACTLY the attitude of those that are pushing the anti-gun legislation.

And I've talked to a BUNCH of them. That apparently doesn't matter to some people. They don't WANT it to be true, so it CAN'T be true.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

There needs to be a distinction between moderates and anti 2A. It seems a lot of folks here are confused.

Anyone that you can simply talk to or take to the range is not anti 2A.

True anti 2A people can not be reasoned with in any sense, period. If you doubt this you are in a fantasy world.

 

[Labguy47]

True anti 2A people can not be reasoned with in any sense, period. If you doubt this you are in a fantasy world.

That is not what I’ve experienced. They spout there rhetoric until something happens and the police are 15 mins away. Then in frustration they come back with show me how this thing works.

 

[LiveLife]

True anti 2A people can not be reasoned with in any sense, period.

Until they get burglarized, robbed, beaten, raped and killed or happens to someone close to them.

Actually happened multiple times in the last city I lived and worked in outskirts of Los Angeles.

Have you seen pissed off feminists, green peace/vegan, LGBTQ members stare into your eyes with tears running down their cheeks determined to never allow another victimization/attack ask you, "Teach me to shoot a gun" ... felt like an wounded solider screaming out for medic in the Army.

I could have cared less how they voted in the past. My focus was teaching them so they could point shoot 4"-6" groups at defensive shooting distances at multiple targets fast. Believe me, there were many tearful range sessions I spent with them.

One time at the range, I heard crying in the next lane. When I looked, I saw an elderly lady obviously upset. Her husband passed away and she lived in rougher part of city. Because crime increased and her neighbors were already victimized (When federal judge released a bunch of inmates due to "overcrowding" in prisons), she was fearful of being raped/losing her life and brought her husband's .38 revolver but she was mostly missing a full-size human target set at 7 yards. I stopped shooting and went over the shooting basics and when she got nice tight 3" groups at multiple targets, she beamed and with tears in her eyes, thanked me and promised to continue practicing. When she left, I could barely hold back my tears and spent a long silence contemplating the evils of this world.

When I exited the range into the gun store, I exchanged a quiet silent stare with range staff who watched me and the old lady inside. They knew I have taught many new shooters how to shoot and simply gave me confirming nods. This is why guns exist. This is why I shoot. This is why I share what I know about shooting and reloading with as many people as possible. Because guns and training give potential victims of crime a fighting chance.

In 2016, some of these life-long Democrat voters told me they voted for Trump/Pence to support the Second Amendment and will vote to support 2A for the rest of their lives.

After moving to our retirement location and work transfer, as I began to teach coworkers defensive shooting/point shooting, even younger progressives were asking to learn how to shoot. Some of the coworkers have been victimized and one staff was told by Sheriff's Department to get a gun to protect herself because her ex-boyfriend was armed and dangerous with increasing concern. Yes, every one of them were taught defensive shooting/point shooting and will be voting to support the 2A for the rest of their lives.

A few weeks ago, at the shooting spot locals use, I was shooting groups with different 22LR ammo. A young couple pulled up and after initial greeting I found out girlfriend who never shot before and works in a city with high crime rate had her store and nearby stores robbed at gunpoint and wanted to learn to shoot and get a conceal carry permit because she was fearing for her life. After boyfriend tried to teach her to shoot (She was shooting all over the place), I spent the next 4 hours teaching her and boyfriend everything from shooting basics to blind folded point shooting. Yes, there were some tearful moments. Later that week, I met with the couple again to review and reaffirm defensive shooting/point shooting. They too will be voting to support the 2A for the rest of their lives.

Even hardcore antis are human and when life happens, things can change. If we see opportunities, even with antis, I believe we can affect change so they can become supporters of 2A.

BTW, this is what I teach them and bulk of what's outlined in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

 

[Casefull]

There is too little self-reliance needed to survive in the modern world. This leads to the ridiculous belief that others will take care of them. We will always be a minority because most humans are sheep and will not kill no matter the personal cost. Rpenmanparker is trying to "rationalize away" the reality of facts.

 

[entropy]

"I know I can trust me with it, but not other people."

Actually, it's more of "I can't trust me with it, therefore I can't trust anyone (but Police and Military) with it.)

 

[Bill Raby]

Funny how the people who think the police are always anxious to harass or murder any minority person they can are the same ones that say police should be the only ones allowed to have guns.

 

[Deanimator]

Funny how the people who think the police are always anxious to harass or murder any minority person they can are the same ones that say police should be the only ones allowed to have guns.

I've noticed the same thing for a VERY long time.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

It is an oversimplification to decide that any one pejorative reason is why some folks are anti as it is that some are pro.

Suffice it to say that starting from the pejorative is the loser's starting point.

But I thought the best way to understand a political opponent's viewpoint was to own them with wicked sick burn memes on Facebook and hang out on forums surrounded by likeminded people to trash talk them!