Fed168 (Glen & others of a similar mind):
Fed168 (Glen & others):
I can understand your discomfort with the ideas expressed in the poster. It is an uncomfortable topic to discuss. Maybe after Bob Dole does a commercial about it, we can talk about it with less tension?
It is not some sort of anarchist's ravings to be concerned with such controvesial practices.
Perhaps you might want to walk in "the other guy's shoes" for a moment. A good proportion of us here (at THR) & in the USA are quite ambivalent about the War on Some Drugs (WoSD).
It is pretty easy to see why those against the entire WoSD folks are against no-knock raids...they don't want
anybody raided for drugs. In their view, no-knocks are just an especially egregious example of the tactics used in the WoSD.
Then there are those who support, more or less, the WoSD who see the tactics being used as offensive and dangerous to law-abiding citizens. They are not blind to the loss of liberty that has occurred as the WoSD winds on...and they don't like it.
Neither of the above groups think the risk of not finding evidence (small enough to flush down a toilet or otherwise dispose of) is worth the risk of executing a no-knock on a law-abiding citizen. Why is that?
1. It is not like there are no other options (usual warrant)
2. As Eisande wrote,
Eisande said:
Our teams thinking is this..if the amount of drugs the BG has can be flushed in the 30 seconds or so it takes us to comply with knock/notice then it really ain't that big a case is it? If it is a sizable quantity of drugs, well, he won't be able to get rid of them anyway.
3. There is no immediate, inherent danger to innocents (as would be the case in a hostage, barricaded & irrational guy, or whatnot) to justify such tactics.
My own SOP in the case I am wakened in the night is as
follows:
jfruser said:
I sleep very well & am not some sort of tactical superman, always sleeping with one eye open.
But, my dogs (which are in the house) are much more alert than I could ever hope to be. Misty, the early warning system, growls or barks if folks are as close as across the street at night. Ten, the close warning system, usually waits until he knows they are on the sidewalk.
So, Misty wakes me & by the time Ten signs out, I am alert. Thye have it down pat, since we used to have neighbors that had social gatherings at all hours of hte night.
Now, given proper knowledge that the breakers-in are LEO-ninjas, I will...comply. Problem is, by that time I am armed. (My rule is if Ten signs out, I open the quick-safe & clear the house with Mr. 1911. Also, all windows & doors are checked.)
I sure hope the tacticool LEO types are as discerning and have as much forbearance as myself, when I look out the window & shine my Surefire in his ninja-masked face. Just what is SOP in such an event? Is it now open season on jfruser, since I checked hte bumps in the night equipped with Surefire & 1911?
It would be a whole lot safer for us solid citizens if no-knocks we outlawed.
Personally, no amount of drugs and no cop's or solid citizen's life is worth the risk that no-knocks present. So, the meth is flushed? I have a feeling that Mr. Scumbag will mess up again in the future.
The only time a no-knock is, ahh, warranted, is in a hostage-type situation, IMO.
I generally make the assumption that both peace officers and solid citizens are doing the best they can and do not wish to needlessly harm another.
A solid citizen, as such, knows they don't sell drugs or otherwise swim in the drug sub-culture. If the police knock and present Mr. Citizen with a warrant, he may be angry, but he's not likely to start blazing away, especially if he has no controlled substances. OTOH, Mr. Citizen knows that there is no good reason for whomever it is to to kick down his door without warning.
In such a situation, where lies the moral right? With the folks busting down the door of the wrong house or Mr. Solid Citizen? My thinking is that Mr. Solid Citizen is in the moral right and that he should treat violent intruders the same until he is absolutely certain he knows they are not a threat to him and his family.
Also, the expectation that Mr. Solid Citizen should automatically fall into "grovel" mode if there is even the slightest chance that those who bust his door down are agents of the government is wrong-headed. He's not the one who had relations with the pooch...and it is HIS house.