Warning! Graphic photo of gun injury!

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I'm relatively sure that not fully seating the bullet wouldn't cause a pressure spike, unless IMR-4759 reacts that way to air spaces (I don't think it does).

Long seating is a problem in cartridge arms, because with some loads, the bullet needs a "running start" into the rifling. But with a muzzleloader, the bullet starts out jammed into the rifling, so there shouldn't be a problem.

I would guess an improperly measured charge, or the above mentioned gas cutting problem.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the guy in the picture from the article on the hpmuzzleloading site is Tony Bridges. I have one of his muzzleloading books. It was published in 2004. In it, he promotes the amazing smokeless powder muzzleloaders like the Savage 10ML II. In fact, I think it is a Savage that he is admiring on the cover of the book. It's weird to hear one of the gun's biggest proponents speaking out against it now. Of course we will never know if the guy overloaded it and then changed his story but when you hear about these things happening to experienced guys you have to wonder.
 
there is something fishy with how that barrel is split, you think it would split along the rifling (if there is any in a muzzleloader) and I know what you can do with photoshop.
 
I've seen rifles with split barrels and none of them ever looked like they split along the rifling. And most muzzle loaders will have rifling. Early longarms called muskets were smoothbores and they took a single ball but they did "look" like rifles to the eye. Then rifling was put into the barrels and they were refered to as "rifled muskets" and eventually the "musket" part was simply dropped and they were refered to as "rifles."
I believe the OP's refered to arm was indeed a "rifle" -- in as much as it would have rifling.
 
Welcome to the 21st century. We don't need to muzzle load anymore. I'm just saying. But I hope the best for his hand all the same.
 
Good find LaserSpot. What kind of world is this if we can't believe everything we read? Haha.
 
That is a very large ouch. I hope the guy can recover the thumb. It's good to see him making the most out of a messy (!) situation and using his misfortune to educate others about how things can go wrong.

It is a little horrifying to think a major manufacturer could include such a flaw in their design. There are a lot more thumbs out there to go missing, after all. It would almost be better hearing that it was the shooters fault. Who here agrees with his assessment of the savage muzzleloader?
 
TLH- I'm no expert but I have read that when the projectile isn't pressed firmly into the powder charge the air chamber can create a situation where the powder detonates rather than burns rapidly. There has been speculation over the years that a similar thing can occur with very light target loads. Some 38 Special revolvers have blown up using target wadcutter loads with little dabs of powder. Too much space in the case can cause the charge to go off like a grenade. At least that's the theory. I don't know...
 
Damn that looks pain-full! (the guys HAND, not the gun)

Curious.....is that pre-hospital....AT hospital....or post hospital?


Russ
 
TLH- I'm no expert but I have read that when the projectile isn't pressed firmly into the powder charge the air chamber can create a situation where the powder detonates rather than burns rapidly. There has been speculation over the years that a similar thing can occur with very light target loads. Some 38 Special revolvers have blown up using target wadcutter loads with little dabs of powder. Too much space in the case can cause the charge to go off like a grenade. At least that's the theory. I don't know...

Complete myth. Whoever came up with that one has a long career in politics ahead of them. "It wasn't me! It wasn't my fault! There's no way it was a double charge! It was some kind of science thing that I made up on the spot! It was global warming!"

Just for fun, try putting some confetti or something in a primed case, with no powder or bullet. Shoot the primer. Wheeee! So, we're supposed to believe that recoil can "suspend" powder, despite the fact that the primer in the cartridge already throws powder around inside the case like that, while it's lighting it?

No, it's a simple example of two things: 1. People doing stupid or careless things (or having an honest accident, in rare cases) and then refusing to take responsibility.

2. People taking a simple rule, not understanding the purpose of the rule, and then trying to apply it to other things. For the seating thing, it is a fact that you can blow up a rifle in a high-pressure cartridge by seating the bullet too long. That's not due to a mythical "air space." That's because, as I said, with top power loads, the bullet needs a "running start" into the rifling. If it doesn't get that, then the pressure spikes as the powder keeps burning at the normal rate, while the bullet isn't moving. Let's say you have a nail that's magnetically stuck to the face of a hammer, and you're trying to get this nail into a piece of wood. What works better, leaning on the hammer, or swinging it? Same thing, a "running start" helps get the nail/bullet moving after it hits resistance.

This has been misapplied to all kinds of things, however. Most pistols can be safely loaded with the bullet jammed into the rifling, because they use faster powders at lower pressures (whether or not you get a pressure spike depends on the powder, but I know for a fact that Alliant Power Pistol won't spike). If you have a stuck bullet and try shooting it out with a "blank" that's not an actual blank but a normal reduced load for that bullet, you won't ring the barrel (if you used too much powder or too fast of a powder, you'd split the entire barrel, not "ring" it); it's pretty much only possible to ring a barrel by shooting a bullet into an obstruction. It's not the gas that does it, it's the bullet going "squish," and pushing out the barrel. Gas physically cannot concentrate pressure and create a ring-shaped dent like that, at least not under the conditions inside a firearm.

And most importantly, it's not the air space that blows guns up. Some powders, like Blue Dot, do have warnings not to leave an air space, but that's because they burn slower without compression, and you could end up with a squib load. I'm really not aware of any powders that actually do burn faster with an air space.

But someone, somewhere, heard that seating bullets long in a .300 Win Mag or something can blow up a gun, decided on his own that it must be due to an air space, maybe remembered from his misspent youth that M-80s only have a thimblefull of flash powder in 'em and the rest is air, and jumped to a totally wrong conclusion. Then the internet happened, and it spread faster than myths that Elvis is alive, and an alien.
 
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BLM500 most inline muzzleloaders started off as bolt action. see pic

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_215456_imageset_02?$main-Medium$

I have one. You pull the bolt back then put in a #209 primer. Then pull the trigger. On the front of the bolt is the firing pin. Which hits the primer. Now you pull the bolt back remove the spent primer. then reload the muzzleloader. then put in a new #209 and fire again.
 
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Ryan M you have no idea what your talking about unless your just talking about smokeless powder.

In black powder the bullet ball or whatever needs to be seated against the powder other wise what your shooting can blow up. This has been known for hundreds of years already. Look at all the civil war cannons and other guns throughout history that have blown up. The two main things that have caused the most problems in muzzleloaders is not waiting or swabbing the barrel after shooting. Especially when you may have remains of red hot black powder still present. Then pouring down new powder in the barrel. KABOOM your flask acts like a grenade. Then not seating the bullet properly or in the case of the civil war a soldier would pick up a muzzleloader that was already loaded Then pour down more powder and push down another ball and try to shoot the muzzleloader. It has been known and found after Gettysburg that muzzleloaders were found with up to 5 balls in the muzzles. Good luck pulling the trigger on that.

When dealing with black powder you must use the proper charge then you must seat the projectile properly against the powder charge.

Here you go for your learning

Black Powder Essentials.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769
 
i got the same pictures in an email the other day and in the reading it said that a black powder measure was used for smokeless powder charges. never played with black poweder so i have no idea what the volume to weight ratio is but i dont make the news i only report it. Given the volume to weight ratio of black powder and using a black powder measure would that have given an over charge of smokeless
 
Given the volume to weight ratio of black powder and using a black powder measure would that have given an over charge of smokeless

Heck ya. you guys got to remember black powder is measured by volume. Most muzzle loaders such as the one pictured shoot best at or around 90-100 grains of black powder. Now you use a volumetric powder measure. just set it to 100 or 90 grains of black powder and pour. it is not weighed though so it could weigh a lot more or less. The main problem is though you would never shoot that heavy of a load in smokeless. Now i have never shot a black powder with smokeless i know you can do it on the savage. However i would imagine the smokeless load has to be somewhere around 30 grains weighted not by volume. a 100 grain load of say H4895 and wow your messing with huge problems. I would never try it especially if you used a black powder measure to load 100 grains of H4895. Wow that is suicide.
 
Sometimes when i go shooting i will take my 30-30 0r 30-06. I will shoot maybe 2 or 3 rounds through my muzzleloader CVA Buckhorn with 100 grains of Goex 2ff. Well after that it seems like shooting my 30-30 is like shooting a 22lr. and the 30-30 has 28 grains of H4895. So anyone that has shot a 30-30 knows they still give a heck of a kick. Now i could not even imagine what 100 grains of H4895 would do especially if measured wrong
 
How much space are we talking about before it becomes dangerous. I find it very hard to believe that having a half inch gap between the powder and bullets is going to cause that much damage. I'm talking about with blackpowder or bp substitutes, not smokeless. There's no doubt it would affect accuracy, but to those who think (or know, I'm not sure), that it will blow up the gun, about how big a gap does it take to do that?

It's easy not to leave a gap though. All you have to do is throw the ramrod down onto the bullet until it bounces back up. Then you know you're seated firmly. Probably not a good idea if you use pellets, but with loose powder, it's the way to go.
 
How much space are we talking about before it becomes dangerous. I find it very hard to believe that having a half inch gap between the powder and bullets is going to cause that much damage. I'm talking about with blackpowder or bp substitutes, not smokeless. There's no doubt it would affect accuracy, but to those who think (or know, I'm not sure), that it will blow up the gun, about how big a gap does it take to do that?

It's easy not to leave a gap though. All you have to do is throw the ramrod down onto the bullet until it bounces back up. Then you know you're seated firmly. Probably not a good idea if you use pellets, but with loose powder, it's the way to go.

Who wants to do the experiment and find out. Probably no one. thats why when loading a black powder revolver you pour the powder then you put a wad or just the round ball then you use the loading lever to fully seat the bullet against the powder.

When using a muzzleloader long arm you pour the powder then wad and round ball then you use the RAM ROD to fully seat the projectile against the powder charge. Same with a cannon. Same when loading Black Powder Cartridges. i pour in powder until it reaches the level where the bullet will seat with a little more or a wad then the bullet seating compresses the powder.

I dont think anyone will want to experiement with how much of an air gap you need. I think anyone who has shot black powder has had a charge they shot where they thought "what the heck was that" when that happens you must make sure all the others are done properly. Revisit the charge. make sure the bore is clean and make sure your using the correct size seated to the charge.
 
I was talking about smokeless, because that gun was supposedly blown up with a smokeless load (IMR 4759). I was also talking about the myth that very light target loads of fast-burning smokeless, like Bullseye, can "detonate" in a .38 SPL.

BP is a completely different ball game, and much more unpredictable. An air space screwing with those I can believe, especially since double loads of real BP will not blow up 99% of muzzleloaders out there.

For the purposes of why this particular gun blew up, it was not an air space, unless he's lying about the powder. And for .38s blowing up with light target loads, it wasn't an air space then, either.
 
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As nasty and unfortunate this event was, am I the only one that wonders what the velocity of that projectile was? I often wonder that about double charges that zap handguns into oblivion.
12,000 FPS.
Sideways, that is.
 
I was thinking that if an air gap between the projectile and the bullet in a bp firearm was that big a deal, there would have been some laboratory testing along those lines to find out what the tolerances are.

How do we know that the acceptable pressures for specific calibers in revolvers are? Because they go in a lab, under controlled conditions and see what it takes to blow one to hell. It's not that hard.
 
If that picture showed a Savage 30-06 bolt rifle blown up with reloaded ammunition, I think most readers would suspect a charge of fast-burning powder or a bore obstruction, and not automatically blame the rifle design. People tend to mistrust the unfamiliar, though.

Usually the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation, whether the gun is a muzzleloader, revolver, or a modern rifle. Sadly, we see kabooms with modern breechloaders posted here, and it is pretty well accepted that a double charge can be capable of blowing up a good gun with correct metallurgy. We also know that some elaborate theories have been developed to explain KBs involving the shooter's own reloads.

I upgraded to a 10ML-II in 2007, so far it has been a good gun. The Savage recommended smokeless loads don't offer much performance advantage over black powder, but I like the fact that I don't have to clean it in the kitchen sink. The 10ML-II hasn't really caught on in the market; I think most non-reloaders (and maybe some reloaders) are uncomfortable with the responsibility of selecting and measuring smokeless charges.

Unlike most muzzleloaders, that gun was proof tested before it left the factory. I can't see any way that barrel could burst with a standard charge, whether the bullet was seated or not.

Checking the witness mark on the ramrod is just as important as checking powder charges on a progressive reloading press. Unfortunately, we also see examples of double charges on progressives.

I looked for info on the "gas cutting" theory on Toby Bridges site, and I couldn't find any detailed info. I would appreciate a link if anybody has one.

I really hope that hand heals up - it looks bad.
 
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