Warning: Wolf LP Primers and mag loads

[Beelzy]

Firstly: There was nothing wrong with the primers, it was Operator Error.

Secondly: The OP needs to write a Thank You letter to Ruger, for it's gun saving his person by being built so well.

Lastly: There are SO many things that were done incorrectly in this tale, that it should be made a Sticky!

 

[EddieNFL]

Speer manual #14 indicates a Magnum Primer with H110 and lists a powder range of only 19.0 to 21.0 for their 250gr GDHP

Lyman, Sierra and Hodgdon also show a starting load as well as a max. Some spreads are smaller than others.

The preaching gets a litte too heavy in here, especially when one knows not the matter he is preaching. H110/296 really doesnt have a reduced starting charge.

Which manual are you citing?

 

[Duckdog]

I had a very similar experience in a 7.62x39 single shot using BL(C)-2 under a 160 gr lead bullet. I knew i was having some ignition problems, but I figured I just shoot the rest of the box instead of pulling the bullets, and I had a squib lodge bullet in the barrel. I knew it when I heard the click that there was an issue. One look down the barrel confirmed it.

Trouble with reducing charges for cast bullets is there is very little data out there, especially if you are trying to keep the pressures down. Any time I use that powder from here on out, I'll use a mag primer. I do use Wolf primers in my pistols and rifles and I have never had one of them fail me yet. They have always went off. Beisides, they're about all I can get where I am.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Talk about thread gone south!

 

[ThomasT]

It sounds to me like the bullets were jumping the crimp and didn't let the powder get a good burn. I bet the primers weren't at fault. Maybe the brass has been loaded too many times and is soft around the case mouth.

 

[EddieNFL]

I bet the primers weren't at fault. Maybe the brass has been loaded too many times and is soft around the case mouth.

Possible, but it usually gets harder.

 

[snuffy]

Quote:
Complete failure of standard reloading procedure.ALWAYS START AT THE RECOMMENDED STARTING LOAD!

ljnowell;
The preaching gets a litte too heavy in here, especially when one knows not the matter he is preaching. H110/296 really doesnt have a reduced starting charge.

Um, excuse me BUT, You're not the only one reading this thread. This forum is open to the public to read whenever---. Suppose someone read that as it being okay to start loading at max.

Those of us that have been doing this for years know that you can't reduce H-110/WW-296 the usual 10% for a starting load. Apparently some manuals show lower starting loads, I didn't look at my stack of manuals, some are 35 years old.

The real problem here was probably the extra room in the 45 colt case. H-110 is position sensitive. Meaning it should be near 100% loading density, so the powder is tight against the primer. It was either here or on the other thread over on TFL that somebody said this load was around 65% density, that's the problem right there.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Will use only mag primers for mag loads in the future.

Just a note on that statement, you are not required to use Magnum primers with all Magnum calibers. You need to use Magnum primers with hard to ignite powders like H110/W296. When using powders like 2400 in Magnum calibers it's not necessary to use a Magnum primer, actually, I get better results with 2400 and a standard primer. With some powders a Mag primer will aid in ignition even when loading .38 Special +P ammo like when using HS-6. (another hard to ignite ball powder)

 

[Jolly Rancher]

Thanks for all of your constructive input guys. Again, I would like to state that my limited testing of 100 rounds of 45 ACP using Bullseye and Wolf LP primers have been positive. I think that when it comes to this primer I will load it to target or mid velocity loads using fast burning powder. In regards to H110, I've used the powder in the past in 357 mag in both revolver and rifle, M1 carbine and 45 Colt in a lever action rifle and got good performance. With this particular Blackhawk I have used CCI 300 LP primers (these are standard primers) in over 50 plus rounds using the same H110 loading and got good results. Again point learned, use magnum primers w/ magnum loads to be on the safe side and stop to inspect any slight sign of malfunction. In the 30 years I've reloaded I've had two such occasions were a bullet was stuck in the barrel, in each case I stopped firing and took measures to resolve the issue). 1) low report and recoil = squib load. 2) the sound of a low powered crack = no powder, only primer ignition. In the case of this third experience there was no report, recoil or crack, only what sounded to me like a hammer falling on a spent primer or snap cap = "click". Granted I was wearing hearing protection as I did in the other two incidents. What if an individual, God forbid, is faced with this in an SD situation? Would you on a double action revolver pull the trigger again or on a semi-auto do a tap / rack and pull the trigger? I guess this is why some people only carry premium ammo along with a BUG.
thanks,
JR

 

[LiveLife]

I guess this is why some people only carry premium ammo along with a BUG.

For me, a definite YES to factory JHP for SD/HD. Reloads for practice only.

Heck, some days at the range, even I have doubts about some of my reloads ...

 

[GaryL]

Then I decided to the load up a hand full of 45 Colt using 250 gr XHP bullets over 26.2 gr of H110 to see what it would do.

Thanks for posting up your experience.

I'm a little surprised at that load for 45Colt, that is more than the max charge for 44Mag with a similar weight bullet, and that is a hand stinging full house load. I realize they are not exactly the same, but still... I'd never use it in a 45 Colt - I would choose 2400 for a full house load if I were inclined to doing that. I find 2400 is more 'linear' than H110.

Anyway, H110 is known for being difficult to ignite. I've never had trouble with it and WLP primers, even in very cold weather, so I know that works.

 

[ljnowell]

Thanks for posting up your experience.

I'm a little surprised at that load for 45Colt, that is more than the max charge for 44Mag with a similar weight bullet, and that is a hand stinging full house load. I realize they are not exactly the same, but still... I'd never use it in a 45 Colt - I would choose 2400 for a full house load if I were inclined to doing that. I find 2400 is more 'linear' than H110.

Anyway, H110 is known for being difficult to ignite. I've never had trouble with it and WLP primers, even in very cold weather, so I know that works.

Shot in a ruger blackhawk, that is probably a safe load. I load a 300gr bullet in 45 colt over as much as 19.5gr of 2400, and that is well above max load in any manual, I would guess. My blackhawk eats them up and shoots good groups at 100 yards with it.

 

[GaryL]

Shot in a ruger blackhawk, that is probably a safe load. I load a 300gr bullet in 45 colt over as much as 19.5gr of 2400, and that is well above max load in any manual, I would guess. My blackhawk eats them up and shoots good groups at 100 yards with it.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Makes me think twice about buying a used 45 colt revolver.

Don't take that as a slam. I'd be more worried about going over with H110. But you are correct about being well over a max rated load, 12.5gr is Alliant's max. Hornady lists 15.9gr as max for Ruger and Contender only, and 17.5gr behind a 250gr bullet for rifle only is as close as Lyman's 49th gets. I would say the ice where you are standing is rather thin.

 

[ljnowell]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Makes me think twice about buying a used 45 colt revolver.

Don't take that as a slam. I'd be more worried about going over with H110. But you are correct about being well over a max rated load, 12.5gr is Alliant's max. Hornady lists 15.9gr as max for Ruger and Contender only, and 17.5gr behind a 250gr bullet for rifle only is as close as Lyman's 49th gets. I would say the ice where you are standing is rather thin

You should do some research on Ruger Only loads in 45 colt, specifically for the Ruger Blackhawk Revolver. Its a whole new world of stuff, and it bears mentioning that its not something to be undertaken by someone who is new to reloading period. A good understanding of reloading is important before jumping into that. A good read is the following:
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Um, excuse me BUT, You're not the only one reading this thread. This forum is open to the public to read whenever---. Suppose someone read that as it being okay to start loading at max.

Those of us that have been doing this for years know that you can't reduce H-110/WW-296 the usual 10% for a starting load. Apparently some manuals show lower starting loads, I didn't look at my stack of manuals, some are 35 years old.

The real problem here was probably the extra room in the 45 colt case. H-110 is position sensitive. Meaning it should be near 100% loading density, so the powder is tight against the primer. It was either here or on the other thread over on TFL that somebody said this load was around 65% density, that's the problem right there

Im not sure why I was quoted above, but you are saying that you cant download h110, and that its loading window is so tight there is not real range. Thats exactly what I said, so if we are disagreeing, I dont really see how.

 

[GaryL]

You should do some research on Ruger Only loads in 45 colt, specifically for the Ruger Blackhawk Revolver. Its a whole new world of stuff, and it bears mentioning that its not something to be undertaken by someone who is new to reloading period.

Well, I know the old colt has a lot of untapped potential, but I'd be inclined to move into the 454 Casull if I wanted to really get into it. I just don't like to load hot rounds that may be safe in one gun and definitely not in the next of the exact same caliber - I'd be worried about a mix up by me or someone else.

Anyway, do you have any chrono data of the load you mentioned? I'd be curious to see what it is doing. Also, is that a New Model Blackhawk you're using?

 

[R.W.Dale]

I know it's s bit late in the game to add much to the OP but today I had a wolf LR fail to ignite a 44g charge of h335 in 308 shooting 125 g bullets.

I had one slight hangfire and another round fail to ignite. The primer went off driving the bullet into the throat but the powder charge failed to ignite turning into yellowey goop in the process.

 

[ljnowell]

Well, I know the old colt has a lot of untapped potential, but I'd be inclined to move into the 454 Casull if I wanted to really get into it. I just don't like to load hot rounds that may be safe in one gun and definitely not in the next of the exact same caliber - I'd be worried about a mix up by me or someone else.

Anyway, do you have any chrono data of the load you mentioned? I'd be curious to see what it is doing. Also, is that a New Model Blackhawk you're using?

Those are valid concerns. I have an uncle that has a colt SAA thatshoots with me. I use a specific bullet and brass combo so I can immediately tell them apart. There is still a risk of it occuring though, without a doubt.

As far as chrono readings, I think it was Alliant data that showed 19.5gr under a 300gr JSP making something like 1150fps. I got that much from 18.3 gr with a LTC(from missouri bullet).VERY heavy load. Thats why I do it though. All other calibers I load for i load very conservatively, and well under published max.

As far as the gun, yes, mine is the New Model Blackhawk with a 7.5" barrel. Its safe(as safe as it gets with those kind of loads) with them, however, I would not come anywhere close to those loads with the New Model Vaquero. I'm afraid it would experience catastrophic failure.

From Handloads,com (FWIW):
19.5 gr 2400 1,166 fps WLP Alliant
Suggested starting load: 17.6 gr
From the Hodgdon Manual #26
Pressure: 30,000 CUP

 

[jimherb]

The only problem I have had with the Wolf primers (so far) is that they don't seem to load very well in my Dillon 650. Probably be OK in a single stage press, though.

 

[GaryL]

As far as the gun, yes, mine is the New Model Blackhawk with a 7.5" barrel. Its safe(as safe as it gets with those kind of loads) with them, however, I would not come anywhere close to those loads with the New Model Vaquero. I'm afraid it would experience catastrophic failure.

Something would fail.

From Handloads,com (FWIW):
19.5 gr 2400 1,166 fps WLP Alliant
Suggested starting load: 17.6 gr
From the Hodgdon Manual #26
Pressure: 30,000 CUP

Thanks for the info. I don't plan to go there, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[EddieNFL]

The only problem I have had with the Wolf primers (so far) is that they don't seem to load very well in my Dillon 650. Probably be OK in a single stage press, though.

What problems are you having?

 

[ljnowell]

Thanks for the info. I don't plan to go there, but it's interesting nonetheless.

I dont use that info as fact, by any means. It just came up in a search when I was googling. I dont know if it was the hodgon manual I originally got the data from or not, its been awhile, to be honest. I also would not recommend someone venturing that far. At 18.5gr you are treading on the 28-30K range in pressure, depending on source. While the blackhawk will take more, it wont in my hands, because I dont want too. Thats all I can manage to hold onto.

 

[allen4150]

I know for a fact that a CCI large pistol magnum primer will push a 240 grain slug from a .44 mag case into a super blackhawk barrel with NO powder.
FAR enough that removal of the cylinder is uninhibited.

 

[mcdonl]

If anything sounds the least bit unusual will stop and inspect.

My fear is I will not hear something unusual when it happens.