Was The Security-Six A Significant Design?

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About the only thing I'd agree on there is that the SS is lighter than the GP. :)
Otherwise, and owning both for many years, I can live quite comfortably with either. And have, with my SS since 1976, for example.
It no longer gets carried outdoors though, when a .357 goes along it's a GP.

I own a 22-year old half-lugged stock GP four-incher, a five-year-old customized (most of the lug removed) GP four-incher, and just bought a full-lugged four-inch GP.

I don't consider the SS to be "better" in any area BUT weight, and the weight can actually be a benefit in recoil recovery between shots fired.

Inferior to the 686? Possibly by your criteria, but not by mine.

This is an area where you have your opinion & I have mine, and yours may work for you, but it doesn't for me. :)
Denis
 
I agree with him completely, the Security Six is a sorry POS! Would whom ever has the 4" Security Six that I sold in a weak moment please call me because I would like to buy it back.
 
Never said the SS is a POS.
I started out my police career with the one I still have, by choice over an issued Smith 19, and I felt quite comfortable with it.
Just don't think it's "better" than the GP. :)
Denis
 
I don't consider it worthwhile to argue about the relative merits of an alleged opinion of a gun "celebrity" in an arena in which his reputation was not built.

Mr. Ayoob, in my mind, deserves our attention in the arena of the use of lethal force and in his critical analyses of officer involved shootings. Because in that venue, he has exceptional expertise and has made a signficant contribution to which we all owe a debt of acknowledgement and thanks.

In the matter of this gun vs. that gun, he is just another gun-writer with his own views, who thinks what he thinks....no different than many of us.
 
Never said the SS is a POS.
I started out my police career with the one I still have, by choice over an issued Smith 19, and I felt quite comfortable with it.
Just don't think it's "better" than the GP. :)
Denis
I am an old fat man and I have to be tricky. Like if I can convince everyone the apple pie tastes bad, maybe I can get more. LOL!! I enjoyed my SS and haven't a clue why I messed up and sold it.
 
Originally Posted by DPris
...you keep raising the theme of it being better in some way than the GP, and there I'm not following you. I have yet to see anybody explain why the SS is superior to the GP.
DPris read this from Confederate
The Security-Six is better. It's lighter and easier to pick up moving targets with. If you're a competition or IDPA shooter, you'll most likely want a 686 (though some people buy GP-100s). Ruger took some of the steel in the grips and put more steel in the barrel, completely changing the balance. Most people here prefer the Security-Six, too. If someone's a hunter or wants to carry a 6-inch .357 hiking or camping, I don't think they'd pick a GP-100 or a 686. The 6-inch Security-Six was an immensely popular hunting pistol. And if barrel-heavy double-action revolvers were better, why hasn't anyone added large underlugs to single-action revolvers?
And also this as a good reason to bring back the Security Six
"Better" is a subjective term but I truly think a 686 is better than a GP-100. I also think the Security-Six is better than a 686 when hiking or camping. If someone is cash strapped, they tend to buy GP-100s; however, they have no choice between them and a lighter version.
Because Ruger did not "think they need a lighter version". But those of us who know how balanced the 6 inch Security Six versus the 686 or GP100 would rather have the Security Six rather than a muzzle heavy 686 or GP100.
[/QUOTE]
Ruger did make a half lug version of the 6 inch GP100 but suddenly discontinued it. Another mystery from Ruger.
Regards,
Howard
 
Howard,
That's preference, which is fine, it's not "better". :)
I personally would like to see Ruger bring out four and six-inch GPs without the full barrel lug again, which would reduce the weight some (the reason I had my four-incher de-lugged), but you know what? Ruger dropped 'em because they weren't selling as well as the full-lugged versions.

In other words, regardless of the relatively few people here (and gun forum participants are NOT always representative indicators of the market at large) who'd like a lighter revolver, it was the MARKET that dictated the current versions of the GP.

The GP came about primarily because Ruger wasn't making money on the SS. Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant.
The other reason was to put out a stronger & more durable .357 revolver than the SS was.
The SS was introduced in the mid '70s when LE was beginning to switch to the idea of using the same power levels for practice & qualifications that they were carrying as duty loads.

For decades, those carrying the .357 Mag in uniform would shoot low-powered .38 Special wadcutters for practice & quals, then load up with the Magnum rounds for the street.
It was eventually realized that wasn't a very practical way to be conducting business, and with the slide toward using .357s for both practice AND street, the guns were worked harder.
Over the next decade the trend continued till most savvy agencies that could afford it were using .357 Magnum loads for everything.
Added to which was the development & adoption of the hotter 125-grain loads.

The deficiencies of the Smith K-Frames with continuing Magnum use were noted, which generated the L-Frame.
Even the SS, much superior to the K-Frame, wasn't totally immune from the combined effects of greater Magnum ammunition use and the hotter 125s.

The GP was the solution Ruger saw to the profitability issue and the durability issue.
I've said before that I don't particularly like the full lugs on the GPs, but apparently the majority of the market does.
You may have noted forum discussions on the new .22 LR SP101 about the lack of a lug. There were, on several forums, those who thought the lugless design lookd odd & would have preferred a full lug and a heavier barrel.
The new .357 SP101 has the full lug because Ruger's market research found a clear preference for it. Along with the additional weight.

I bought the .22 SP partially because it had no lug. Lighter & better cosmetics, for me.
I've lobbied with Ruger over turning out the new .357 SP WITHOUT a lug.
They're selling what the customer base wants, overall.

Discussions still go on along the lines of "Why should I get a five-shot SP when I can have a six-shot GP?"
When the answer is "Because the SP is 10 ounces lighter!", it frequently falls on deaf ears. Or deaf keyboards. :)
Point there is that three or four ounces may make a difference between the SS & the GP to you, but weight isn't necessarily a factor for everybody.

If the only criteria in declaring the SS is "better" than the GP is weight, that just means it's "better for you", not "better" across the board. :)

And- Ruger will NOT be bringing the SS back.
Denis
 
Confederate, I agree with you that the Security-Six (Service-Six, Speed-Six) were significant. Personally, I liked them very much. I shot PPC competition with an early 6" Security-Six for most of a season in the early '70s, and often taught with one tuned and rebarreled by Lou Ciamillo in the '80s. Still own those two and a few others.

What the late editor Dan Shideler and I decided to focus on in the book were not just this or that writer's favorite guns, but guns that had "made a difference." That is, guns that changed trends on the streets, on the battlefields, among outdoorsmen, and even in competition. I personally thought of the Security-Six as a heavier-duty Combat Magnum that was just as portable, if not quite as smooth of action as a Model 19. It didn't change or create trends, as the Python and the Combat Magnum did.

Timing was a factor in that. The Security-Six came out in roughly the same time frame as the Colt Mark III series and the Dan Wesson revolvers. Each had some "revolutionary" aspects to it: the use of sintered metal in the Mark III Colt, for example, and the interchangeable barrels of the Dan Wesson, along with some other subtleties of the Dan Wesson design. "Shared attention" may have kept the Security-Six from getting more attention than it did.

As to who likes what guns better personally, as many have said here, it's heavily subjective. If there was one perfect handgun, we'd all carry it to the exclusion of all others, and gun forums would be a much more boring place. Suffice to say, you and I both appreciate the Security-Six.
 
Mas,
In reading the book I am dismayed to find you're apparently only four years older'n me.
And here all these years I thought you looked SO much older.... :D
Denis
 
Denis, in the immortal words of Indiana Jones, "It's not the age, it's the mileage."

..."Sonny."

:D , Mas
 
Significant design?
More like I'd sell most of my other guns just to keep mine significant....
 
That's preference, which is fine, it's not "better". :)
Yep, it's based on what you want to do. To those with a preference for hiking and camping, yes, the Security-Six is actually better because of the weight. Can someone prefer a heavier magnum on the trail? Yes, sure, but I can't think of many. Carrying in the wilderness, most people, I think, would strongly prefer a Security-Six. And if people do range shooting and competition, the GP-100 would be better.

I personally would like to see Ruger bring out four and six-inch GPs without the full barrel lug again, which would reduce the weight some (the reason I had my four-incher de-lugged), but you know what? Ruger dropped 'em because they weren't selling as well as the full-lugged versions.
I think, like fashion, people are programmed what to want. But it also wears off after awhile. I'm delighted you had your 4-inch GP "de-lugged" as it bears out what I'm saying. People should have a choice. Just the number of people here illustrates my point.
In other words, regardless of the relatively few people here (and gun forum participants are NOT always representative indicators of the market at large) who'd like a lighter revolver, it was the MARKET that dictated the current versions of the GP.
As revolvers become more of a specialized gun, these forums become more relevant. Just give people a choice. There are a number of us out there who don't want the weight or balance of a gun with an underlug. Remember, in every GP-100 there's a Security-Six struggling to break free.
The deficiencies of the Smith K-Frames with continuing Magnum use were noted, which generated the L-Frame. Even the SS, much superior to the K-Frame, wasn't totally immune from the combined effects of greater Magnum ammunition use and the hotter 125s.
Skeeter Skelton wrote that he knew of three Security-Sixes, each of which had fired in excess of 30,000 hot magnum rounds. One was spitting a little, he wrote, but it was still serviceable.

Yes, some Security-Sixes had problems, but so, too, have the GP-100s and maybe even the 686. As I've said elsewhere, heat treat has a lot to do with how well a gun holds up. S&W, with its forged steel, has had problems when its heat treat wasn't up to snuff. And Ruger's had problems with its investment casting when it's heat treat wasn't up to snuff. I think I told you that I dry fired a Virginia Dragoon once at a range and the hammer broke like glass!

At the time Smith changed its configuration, there was only one reason they went with the underlug barrel and that's because the Python had one. And the thing that caused Ruger to change was that S&W changed, and it worked out for them. Everyone likes a new, stronger gun, even if the previous gun was plenty strong.

The GP was the solution Ruger saw to the profitability issue and the durability issue.
I never saw any indications that Ruger was having a durability issue. Many SS users here haven't had a durability issue, either. Lightweight bullets tend to be hard on any gun, whether it's a GP or a SS. The SS had no frame stretching problems, and I'm not aware of any cracked cylinder problems...only cracked forcing cones, and they were rare.

I've said before that I don't particularly like the full lugs on the GPs, but apparently the majority of the market does.
How would anyone know if there's no choice? You go into a store and you see a 686 and a GP-100. It's like the old saying about the Ford. You could get them in any color as long as they were black. If you concluded that "apparently the majority of the market" liked the black color, how could anyone prove otherwise? The answer is obvious. Not everyone can afford to have one their guns de-lugged. (BTW, I'd love to see a photo of yours if you have any digital ones at hand.)

You may have noted forum discussions on the new .22 LR SP101 about the lack of a lug. There were, on several forums, those who thought the lugless design lookd odd & would have preferred a full lug and a heavier barrel. The new .357 SP101 has the full lug because Ruger's market research found a clear preference for it. Along with the additional weight.
I would have liked to see both versions and heft them. I thought the old S&W 63 was a little too light and could have used a lug. That front sight tended to wobble a bit, unlike my Model 17.

I bought the .22 SP partially because it had no lug. Lighter & better cosmetics, for me. I've lobbied with Ruger over turning out the new .357 SP WITHOUT a lug. They're selling what the customer base wants, overall.
The SP-101 3-inch has a very nice underlug. It's only one ounce heavier than the 2-incher! Not all underlugs are bad.

Discussions still go on along the lines of "Why should I get a five-shot SP when I can have a six-shot GP?"
If they could have a third choice, they might go for that. Alas, many people think they want an underlug, and frankly many of them are shooters at ranges. As more land is zoned out for outdoor shooting, more people shoot indoors, where underlugs retard recoil. With all the people seeing underlugs (even on Taurus revolvers), many think revolvers without them look odd. Me, I don't. One thing I liked about my S&W 60 .38 was its skinny little barrel. It had an "old" look that appealed to me.

257.gif

When the answer is "Because the SP is 10 ounces lighter!", it frequently falls on deaf ears. Or deaf keyboards. :) Point there is that three or four ounces may make a difference between the SS & the GP to you, but weight isn't necessarily a factor for everybody.
It's not just weight, it's balance. The GP-100 shaves some steel off the handle/grip and put it under the barrel. The first time I picked up a friend's GP-100, I pointed it and frowned. I told him it would probably retard recoil, but I didn't like how it dipped forward. It was a constant battle on keeping the barrel up and level. I've gone into a number of gun stores on occasion to see if I couldn't change my mind and I never did.
And- Ruger will NOT be bringing the SS back.
Well, maybe not, but I still haven't thrown my Confederate money away, either. :)

Ruger_SS_Assembly_1.gif

.
 
Confederate, I agree with you that the Security-Six (Service-Six, Speed-Six) were significant. Personally, I liked them very much. ... What the late editor Dan Shideler and I decided to focus on in the book were not just this or that writer's favorite guns, but guns that had "made a difference." ... I personally thought of the Security-Six as a heavier-duty Combat Magnum that was just as portable, if not quite as smooth of action as a Model 19. It didn't change or create trends, as the Python and the Combat Magnum did.
The strength of the Ruger, combined with the fact that Bill Ruger decided to use investment casting and modular design which allowed the gun to be field stripped in the...well...field is what I would have tossed into the ring. It had a solid frame that made it durable when the K-frames weren't.

Timing was a factor in that. The Security-Six came out in roughly the same time frame as the Colt Mark III series and the Dan Wesson revolvers. Each had some "revolutionary" aspects to it: the use of sintered metal in the Mark III Colt, for example, and the interchangeable barrels of the Dan Wesson, along with some other subtleties of the Dan Wesson design.
Although the Mark III may have had some revolutionary aspects to it, I think it was more of the same from Colt. The Dan Wesson, on the other hand, would have been another gun I would have included. Although the changing barrel thing didn't survive, DW had a number of quality control problems that may have marred its future. Still, people with Pistol Pacs loved their guns and I thought it was innovative enough that it should have caught on. The book would have been much better if it had just spent two pages each on the Security-Six and Dan Wesson as the Security-Six did give birth to the GP-100 as well as the Ruger Redhawk and SP-101. That's quite a parentage!

Suffice to say, you and I both appreciate the Security-Six.
Aye, that is a fact. And you also turned many on to the advantages of the 125gr JHP load in the .357 mag. At first I couldn't believe that one load could be that good, but it was. In the automatic area, is there a caliber/load that is its equal? Or better?

RugerSS_SolidFrame_3.gif

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This has been a great thread and a lot of very good responses. Nothing is going to change the past events. Its too bad that the Six series was discontinued. Whether Ruger made money or not on the Six series will never be known. Bill Ruger said he did not. But I along with others I feel there was room for Ruger to continue making the Six series right along with the GP100.
S&W did it.
Other than the S&W K frame magnum, the Security Six was the closest to being the all around 357 magnum. And it was stronger than the K frame.
Regards,
Howard
 
Pardon the slight change in trajectory here, though my question is specifically on the Security Six.

There's an apparently fine example of a blued 2.75-inch Security Six for sale locally, and I'm sorely tempted.

My question is only this: are there any upkeep/maintenance/spare parts issues that would make the Security Six difficult to keep in fine working condition, given that it's been out of production for 20 years?

If there are no spare parts considerations, I'll have to come up with a rationalization to jump on this Security Six, as it doesn't fit into my established "to buy" list (uh, don't worry, I seem to be pretty good at that!).
 
I've regretted selling my 4" Speed Six for over 20 years now.
I like my GP but it's not the same.

BTW, I didn't know Mas was a member here. I've read your articles for many years.
 
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We own a pair of 4'', stainless Security-Six revolvers. We also own a 6" GP100.

The GP100 is every bit as accurate as our S&W Model 686, and the action is easily as smooth. I'd never heard that S&W built the L-frames to compete with a Python, and I think that's just speculation. They were the result of documented failures in K-frames fed a steady diet of .357 Magnum ammunition, plain and simple.

My wife actually prefers the balance of her GP100 over her Security-Six, and our 686. Yes, it's our experience, but its also as much truth as the claims that the GP100 is "too.....anything".

Mr. Ayoob explained his rationale, and that's pretty much the end of that. Guns are easily as subjective as politics. Often, the "facts" produced to support one's opinions are about as truthful, too.

Just enjoy the fact that we can have them, for now. :)
 
Never have needed any parts for mine in over 20 years and many thousands of rounds. I did replace the wood grips with Hogue rubber monogrips. Much better. Buy it.
 
JR47 said:
I'd never heard that S&W built the L-frames to compete with a Python, and I think that's just speculation. They were the result of documented failures in K-frames fed a steady diet of .357 Magnum ammunition, plain and simple.
It never occurred to me that this wasn't common knowledge. Although it will never be admitted through official factory channels, much as they wouldn't admit that the M-19/66 had functional problems handling regular use with .357 Magnum loads.

In PPC competition, which was THE LE competition at the time, the S&W K-frame ruled the Open (bull barrel and sight ribs) class with it's shorter hammer travel which could be tuned to just light off Federal primers...some folks even went as far as to convert the M-53 to .38 spl just to get a frame mounted firing pin.

However the Python still ruled the Distinguished (Leg) competition, which mandated production barrels...due in no small part to the barrel profile (additional weight up front). The L-frame barrel profile was developed to address this shortcoming, while at the same time upgrading the frame to handle the beating they were getting from magnum use...the L-frame (and the GP-100) use the same size speedloaders as the Python. S&W went as far as to introduce a version of the 586/686 with an extra tall Patridge front sight blade to allow using a neck hold at 50 yards
 
It's my understanding that Ruger no longer supports the SS, parts have pretty much run out.
Denis
 
DPris, that's my concern. I already have a rare and discontinued revolver (Colt Mag Carry), and as much as I want some of the older revolvers, I intend to shoot them for a long time and don't want to run into a wall when a small part breaks.
 
It's my understanding that Ruger no longer supports the SS, parts have pretty much run out.

I think there are plenty of parts still out there considering they produced close to 1,500,000. Anything can break, but less likely on a Ruger. They used over-sized parts on all their DA revolvers. I've never needed any parts, but there are places that sell them.

These guys have a few.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=8353
 
One thing about the Numrich/Gun Parts operation most people tend to overlook is that a very high percentage of those parts are NOT new.
You may, and it frequently happens, get a used part that's in worse shape than the one you're trying to replace.

The SS is a rugged gun, but occasionally things do go bad. IF they do, you may have a chore on your hands getting it running again.
Denis
 
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