water in .223 barrels?

[kBob]

A post I did this morning included a story about the plastic rain caps we were issued for the M16A1, in the early 70's they were black but by the early 80's I saw only red ones (some guys insisted that the red were for units in training and the black for "tactical" applications) This jarred a few brain cells together and awoke a question.

Anyhow in the late 1960's and early 1970's the M16 comic book with the Will Esner illustrations (Yeah, Bonnie!) had a section on the danger of firing an M16 that had ANY water in the barrel from "Cappilary Action" and surface tension. When finished with a stream crossing we were to point the muzzle down, pull back the charging handle enough to unlock the bolt, shake the rifle, release the charging handle and use the forward assist to insure the bolt was closed (THERE! A use for the forward assist, nay-sayers!)

We were told that there was a danger of getting a burst barrel and even being injured if we failed to do this.

Has anyone seen a .223/5.56 actually damaged or wrecked by a drop of water in the bore on firing?

-kBob

 

[bersaguy]

I think the idea is that the bore will not drain on it's own without opening the action, kinda like how you can hold water in a straw by putting your thumb over one end. This training film gives me the impression that early versions of the m16 were...finicky..to say the least

 

[milemaker13]

That makes sense. I see how popping the bolt open would allow for quicker draining of the barrel.

 

[Jerseykris]

When I went to boot camp in 87', and then stateside training & deployments through the early 90s. I think we were among the last generations to be training with the A1s before the A2s were implemented everywhere else.

Went through the same training with them you just described, clearing after water crossings, rain soaked marches, etc.(we were using clear rain caps on them though, maybe the army was cheaping out at that point)
Green trainees, a lot of wet barrels, but I never saw or heard about a one having a catastrophic reaction.
But just because I never saw it doesn't mean it didn't happen elsewhere. If we were doing the same training precautions over a range of that many years, I suspect there might have been some validity to the danger.

 

[milemaker13]

An old restaurant manager i had told us "If you clean the corners well, the middle takes care of itself."

A lot of soldiers in a lot of field conditions. If everyone is generally following these rules then the ones that truly need it will most likely do it too.

 

[Pat Riot]

Wow...It’s Deja Vu all over again. Haha

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ar-15-in-the-water.269437/

I have always heard that a barrel filled with water, or a substantial amount was dangerous, regardless of rifle type. I had also heard that releasing the water by opening the action to allow the water to drain was the thing to do and that remaining water along the side of the bore shouldn’t case damage to the barrel if fired.

When I have carried rifles in the rain I have either covered the bore or carried it barrel down. I have fired lots of rifles in the rain, mostly at cowboy action matches, and I know I have had some water in the bores but I never had an issue.

 

[GBExpat]

THERE! A use for the forward assist, nay-sayers!

<chuckle>

 

[243winxb]

From owners manual.

 

[SamT1]

I know you don’t want to leave a wet one loaded. My AR10 got drenched one day during a shooting session. I guess rain was going in the dust cover and setting up the top few rounds in the mag. When I got done I just threw it back in the rack. A few days later I fired a shot and it ripped the rim off a case. It had grown to the chamber with a green tarnish. The first 3 rounds in the mag looked the same.

 

[kenboyles72]

Just pull the charging handle, drain, give it a shake and shoot. As long as the barrel is not full of water, it's fine to shoot. Back when I was in the Army, our rifles went through hell and never had a malfunction due to the rifle. Ammo on the other hand, was a different story.

 

[FL-NC]

When I was in the military, we worked a lot in maritime environments (a fancy way to say water). Whenever we swam with our weapons, we had a mag loaded and the chamber clear. When we made shore, we would hold the weapon upwards, pull the charging handle back and hold it there for a few seconds, then release it. This would drain the water out of the barrel and the buffer tube, as well as chamber a round from the mag.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The problem is that in a .22 caliber barrel the weight of the water trapped in the bore is too light to overcome the surface tension and the vacuum behind it, the water will not drain out on its own. Theoretically, .30 caliber barrels will be self draining if the muzzle is held downwards, as the weight of water will be enough to break the surface tension.

Any bore obstruction that completely fills the bore is a serious risk. It may not actually split the barrel, but you can get extreme over pressure and case failure (which will usually, at a minimum, wreck the extractor).

All this was well documented by the Army during what passed for testing of the M16, and re-told quite well (with primary references) in "The Black Rifle" by Stevens and Ezell.

 

[Coal Dragger]

A post I did this morning included a story about the plastic rain caps we were issued for the M16A1, in the early 70's they were black but by the early 80's I saw only red ones (some guys insisted that the red were for units in training and the black for "tactical" applications) This jarred a few brain cells together and awoke a question.

Anyhow in the late 1960's and early 1970's the M16 comic book with the Will Esner illustrations (Yeah, Bonnie!) had a section on the danger of firing an M16 that had ANY water in the barrel from "Cappilary Action" and surface tension. When finished with a stream crossing we were to point the muzzle down, pull back the charging handle enough to unlock the bolt, shake the rifle, release the charging handle and use the forward assist to insure the bolt was closed (THERE! A use for the forward assist, nay-sayers!)

We were told that there was a danger of getting a burst barrel and even being injured if we failed to do this.

Has anyone seen a .223/5.56 actually damaged or wrecked by a drop of water in the bore on firing?

-kBob

Nope. Non issue.

Stop worrying about dumb nonsense.

 

[jeepnik]

As much as I hate the M16 (the original) water in the barrel was never a problem. Then again that could be because when you needed it firing was always a crap shoot.

 

[13Bravo]

I remember using the black cap in Basic Training in 2006. It lasted all of a few hours before I shot through it at the range, forgot it was on there. Maybe red ones are a good idea.

 

[kBob]

bersaguy,

You wrote, "This training film gives me the impression that early versions of the m16 were...finicky..to say the least"

Yes, yes they were. They seemed at times to be a tribute to Murphey. My own experiences with the XM16E1 and M16A1 were such that much of my early time on line was devoted to AR bashing.

I blamed initially the direct impengment gas system for most of the rifles ills and still think that was a major player in those early rifle issues. This idea was re enforced when on leaving the service I purchased and used extensively an AR-180 which had far fewer issues with the same ammo and even thanks to a little cutting on the body to make a new lock position, the same magazines. (M16 magazines were held in low regard by many field troops and also blamed for the rifles failures)

These days I tend to blame petroleum based lubricants....when cooked by that gas system. I just don't think the Army or ourselves understood what was happening. Lubricant, Small Arms (LSA) was thought to be the answer to everything. It was a petroleum based lube. While parts were flooded and wet with it was slick as all get out, but let that gas system dump hot gas and propellent particals in it until it boiled down to a black mud and it made things worse. Things like that training film urged troops to slather on the LSA and if you had a stoppage on the range an assistant to the range officer was there to glop a good portion of a LSA bottle on your rifle to get you through that section of the range firing, sometimes with repeated applications. It was not an infrequent event to have oil in one's eye from the escape of cooked oil around the charging handle....in those days the Army did not issue safety glasses and discouraged the use of non prescription sun glasses.

One summer in Germany a few of the guys had a bit of success in keeping their rifles working with both Blanks and Ball by not using LSA anywhere but the trigger and controls parts. They used Number 2 pencils to coat the bolt parts with graphite. As a result many of us felt a dry film lubricant might have been a solution.

Once the early then spray on silicon lubes hit the market it seemed the AR15 and especially its M16A1 varients became a different rifle.

It was a strange rifle in many ways. We were told to NEVER let it get dry and Armorers were specifically instructed to not expect oil free rifles to be turned in for inspection. There are among us old farts a few that on more than one occasion in desperation to have a unit armorer accept an M1 Rifle or M14 cleaned those rifles after normal cleaning with rubbing alcohol to remove any oily residue least the armorer be displeased and prevent us from turning in a rifle. This practice was discouraged with the M16A1.

On the other hand that film encouraged "Field Expedient" attempts to keep the rifles working. Notice that the gas enters the bolt carrier and the bolt sort of acts like a piston. Well all those hot gases and that LSA coated the inside of the bolt carrier with "carbon". A favorite "trick" of armorers was to take your bolt carrier and run a screw driver into the hole the bolt slips into and scrape the inside of the bolt carrier then slame the bolt carrier face down on a clean white towel and look for flecks of carbon on the towel. I am here to tell you that a chamber brush NEVER got all that stuff out. Bolts them selves were an issue as the carbon when baked on looked like part of the metal of the bolt....until the armorer scratched it with his screwdriver blade and a bit flaked off.....this after a good scrubbing with a bore or chamber brush had done nothing but polish it up to that metal looking state. This is why some of the after market tools have various shapes of scrappers on them even today. Supposedly one could get enough carbon built up in the back of the bolt carrier's bolt cavity to interfere with the bolt completely locking (sort of like the way a HK P7 Pistol's gas cylinder can fill with crud) so that screw driver always scraped that back area and NewBees got to take their rifles back up to the barracks for cleaning a few more times thanks to that white towel. A nasty armorer might scrape a bolt and send the kid back with his rifle and next time scrape the cylindrical portion of the Bolt Carriers bolt well and send him back and then scape the bottom of that well and send him back yet again.....some armorers managed to get two man rooms with locks on the doors so they could sleep as well.

Early on troops were told to never take apart the trigger group and never even think about taking out the extractor and its spring, but a soon as armorers could worm a clean white pipe cleaner into those areas and it come out "dirty" troops started taking those things apart.....and putting them together wrong so that same nasty armorer that was playing tricks missed the issues which showed up next time the rifles were fired. One of my favorites and most oft seen was the "auto sear" on the M16A1. It could be put back in the rifle and appear to be fine, then not work so the rifle when set on AUTO would fire a single shot and the hammer follow the bolt home. The built in safety system work perfect and no shot would be fired. Trooper would do and immediate action drill.....then fire again just one round....do another immediate action drill....fire one round and panic. All one needed to do was place the safety selector on SEMI and use the rifle as a semiauto rifle and just forget Full Auto until the rifle could be looked at.

How the rifle was managed by the armorers of a unit thus had much to do with unreliability. The "common knowledge" shared by especially actually undertrained NCOs had much to do with the rifles unreliability. The lack of practical skill of the average private soldier on leaving Basic and Advanced Training greatly effected the rifles unreliability. But even if you got everything else right, having a lube that turned into black mud could really screw things up.

Fortunately the newer modern lubes have greatly reduced these issues. Don't believe me? Don't Argue, just shoot an LSA slathered AR 15 right next to another AR15 of the same type lubed lightly with one of the modern non petroleum lubes. Check them after the first round and you will see a difference. After a full magazine the difference will be painfully obvious.

Before the anti kBob attacks begin on how I just don't like AR15s...there is a 16 inch M-4-ish midlength about a foot to the right of the desk I am at and an Colt HBAR in a safe down the hall. I help a buddy build a PSA kit a couple of weeks back. I have few issues with the AR15 TODAY, but that does not change what I lived through with the XM16E1 and M16A1 in the past.

-kBob

 

[Speedo66]

It begs the question then, why don’t guns fired underwater blow up?

 

[mjsdwash]

I thought they figured out the early M16's sucked because Colt half assed the the chamber reaming. Thousands of people with Savage 22's and Remington 870's have had the same in the last few years. But back to the OP, I have ran mine in a few snow storms where enough water got into the action to look like a water balloon exploding on the next shot, but never any damage. I never managed to get enough into a barrel to matter. I don't think the capilary action is the real issue. I think putting a 3/4 funnel on the end of the barrel problem. I read an article once about sand blowing a barrel after someone dropped the rifle. Of course a 20" 1/4" diameter tube sealed on one end with a wedged in brass case, and a funnel on the other would be harder to drain than a 16" .30 diameter barrel with a less than air tight chamber.

 

[SamT1]

It begs the question then, why don’t guns fired underwater blow up?

Equal pressure on the outside.

 

[Varminterror]

I can’t help but shake my head any time water droplet and underwater gun myths come up. A lot of pseudoscience gets kicked around, and guys nod along without really considering what they’re reading.

One example:

Equal pressure on the outside.

Guys say this a lot, because it sure seems to make sense, but I’ve penciled out the numbers - that does NOT answer the question.

So... at 3ft deep, there’s about 1.3psi additional on the exterior of the barrel. However, in a 16” AR, there’s an additional 159.5grns of water in the bore in front of the bullet which must be expelled by the powder upon firing. But guys neglect inertia and are satisfied by saying 1.3psi of extra water pressure on the outside offsets the inertia of a projected mass 2-3 times greater than the standard bullet weight...

Also consider just having water present on the surface of the ammo - like shooting in the rain - is often enough volumetric displacement to cause enough change in chamber pressure to blow primers or cause sticky extraction (had a few shooters at a PRS match in TX this wknd find that out the hard way).

For the dynamics of skin tension, capillary action, bubbles and menisci, angle of insertion or removal, sealed chambers, etc, there’s a LOT more going on than most folks give it credit. So be wary of pseudo-scientific explanations regarding firearms and water...

 

[SamT1]

I can’t help but shake my head any time water droplet and underwater gun myths come up. A lot of pseudoscience gets kicked around, and guys nod along without really considering what they’re reading.

One example:



Guys say this a lot, because it sure seems to make sense, but I’ve penciled out the numbers - that does NOT answer the question.

So... at 3ft deep, there’s about 1.3psi additional on the exterior of the barrel. However, in a 16” AR, there’s an additional 159.5grns of water in the bore in front of the bullet which must be expelled by the powder upon firing. But guys neglect inertia and are satisfied by saying 1.3psi of extra water pressure on the outside offsets the inertia of a projected mass 2-3 times greater than the standard bullet weight...

Also consider just having water present on the surface of the ammo - like shooting in the rain - is often enough volumetric displacement to cause enough change in chamber pressure to blow primers or cause sticky extraction (had a few shooters at a PRS match in TX this wknd find that out the hard way).

For the dynamics of skin tension, capillary action, bubbles and menisci, angle of insertion or removal, sealed chambers, etc, there’s a LOT more going on than most folks give it credit. So be wary of pseudo-scientific explanations regarding firearms and water...

So why can they fire in water without exploding smarty pants?

 

[tark]

So why can they fire in water without exploding smarty pants?

Has anybody actually tried that with an AR? I saw Mythbusters fire a Garand underwater without damage. An AK will have no trouble. I suspect an AR will be OK as well.

 

[mjsdwash]

heres a question, how many of these rifles fired under water had full barrels? Its not like the air just disappears. Anyone ever put one under water with the bolt open, at a slight angle, and wait for it to stop bubbling? I think and AR barrel would do decent, considering what we call a "pencil weight" barrel is still 1/5" wall thickness.

 

[lysanderxiii]

If barrel and the surrounding environment is water there is no problem, other than possible higher than normal chamber pressures. The propellant gas just has to push the bullet and the water out of the barrel the same way it pushes the air out of the way.

Barrel obstructions are different.

Don't believe? Try it yourself. Actually, no, don't. Just watch some other guys do it.




Drain the water from your barrel before shooting. Don't let this be you.

 

[RecoilRob]

So why can they fire in water without exploding smarty pants?

Not being a 'smarty pants', but just because something didn't explode upon firing doesn't mean that damage wasn't done. An over-pressure incident will stress barrel and chamber and start the clock ticking toward destruction just like firing ammo that is over-loaded. Just because it doesn't blow up firing a few shots doesn't mean you can continue using this level of ammo indefinitely without something eventually letting go when design pressures are exceeded.