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We need to watch and challenge the data!

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by berettaprofessor, Jan 29, 2013.

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  1. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    In the article linked below, posted currently on CNN, there were three statistics that popped out at me....

    a) 6220 murders by handguns in 2011 per FBI statistics
    b) 72% of firearm deaths caused by handguns
    c) 12-15000 gun related deaths/year.

    "C" does not add up from "B" and "A"; the first two hard figures should lead to a total death figure of 8639. Obviously, the total numbers are inflated for shock value and I think we need to challenge them (as I did in the CNN article).

    Link: http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/29/us/handguns-and-federal-legislation/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
     
  2. ATBackPackin

    ATBackPackin Member

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    Actually C should be a little higher.

    A talks about murders, while B and C talks about deaths. Two different animals.
     
  3. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator

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    ATBackPackin makes a very good point. Do not let the antis mix-&-match "murders" with "homicides" or "deaths." Justifiable homicides are homicides, but they're not murders.
     
  4. arjppj

    arjppj Member

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    suicides too
     
  5. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    The not-so-loyal opposition likes to include suicide by firearms in any tally of "gun deaths" because it inflates the numbers drastically despite the fact that many countries with strict gun control laws have higher suicide rates than the US.

    The best way to deceive people is by telling the truth! The trick is you don't tell the whole truth. The part you leave out causes people to believe what you want, but not the truth.
     
  6. mj246

    mj246 Member

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    Either that or they used the wrong column. Assuming they're still using the FBI's UCR like for their percentages of what guns are used in murders, column 1 - the total number of murders - all adds up to 12,664. And yes the total gun murders equal 8,583 according to the chart. So if they used the total murders instead of gun murders and inflated it based on the admission of the FBI to incomplete data from certain states, they would wind up with a number between 12,000 and 15,000...
     
  7. BronsonPage

    BronsonPage Member

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    According to the Jan 28 issue of Time magazine, there were 18,253 gun homicides in 1993 and 11,101 gun homicides in 2011. That is a 39% drop in gun homicides.

    In 1993 there were 18,940 gun suicides and 19,766 in 2011. This is a 4% increase.

    Gun deaths from all causes, including accidents, were 39,596 in 1993 and 32,163 in 2011. This is a 19% drop in total gun deaths in those two decades.

    The latest FBI report shows that rifles are used in only 2.7% of gun homicides. Only 0.7% of the gun homicides involve "assault rifles."
     
  8. John3921

    John3921 Member

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    Even if the numbers are correct - how many crimes were stopped because of handguns?

    How many carjackings were stopped because the driver had a .45 in their face?

    How many burglaries were stopped when someone racked the slide on their 1911?

    If you are going to look at statistics, you have to look at the relevant statistics - not some controlled subset.
     
  9. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Nor should it. "C" is for all firearms related deaths, not just murders.

    The FBI UCR for 2011 shows there there 12,644 murders in 2012. 6,220 were committed with handguns, 323 were committed with rifles. The percentage of murder with carried out with handguns was 6,220/12,644= 0.49 (49%) while the percentage with rifles was 2.5%.

    The percentage of all homicides with a handgun is meaningless since it would include legitimate self defense shootings, gang on gang, police shooting criminals, and suicides. Without parsing those deaths there's good shoots and bag shootings mixed together.

    While the violent crime and murder rates have been dropping since the AWB expired so have the total firearms related death rates. The ratios for all homicides
    might be stable, but the overall rates themselves have been dropping for violent crime and murder and firearms related deaths.

    This has been going on for 20+ years while the firearms most often purchased by law-abiding voters and law enforcement are the firearms that prohibitionists want to scapegoat as somehow related to high rates that are actually the lowest in a generation. The data is out there, but the claims by prohibitionists don't sync with it.

    If these firearms are more popular with citizens and the rates of murder and homicides have been falling then we don't have a national problem with firearms. What we have is politicians with out of date ideas.

    President Obama pointed out in the debates, "in my hometown of Chicago there's an awful lot of violence, and they're not using AK-47s. They're using cheap
    handguns,". That is the same in almost any city in the nation. "Cheap handguns", not $400, $500, $700, $1,000, etc. handguns that we would buy, but cheap "junk" that heaped up in bins in evidence rooms. They have tape holding the grips on (or in place of them), they're rusted and nothing proposed by any
    ban will touch them.

    We need to solve the root causes of violent crime and not allow politicians with a failed 20+ year old agenda and no new worthwhile solutions to violence in America dictate to the entire nation from their personal ambition and fear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  10. RustHunter87

    RustHunter87 Member

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    Also A and B are "handgun" stats and C says nothing of the sort
     
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    While the violent crime and murder rates have been dropping since the
    AWB expired so have the total firearms related death rates. The ratios
    of means for all homicides might be stable, but the overall rates themselves have been dropping for violent crime and murder and firearms related deaths. That drop in rate of all homicides is a very good thing and not something to be ignored.

    This drop in murder rates and all homicides has been going on for 20+ years while the firearms most often purchased by law-abiding voters and law enforcement are the firearms that prohibitionists want to scapegoat as somehow related to high rates that are actually the lowest in a generation. The data is out there, but the claims by prohibitionists don't sync with it.

    If these firearms are more popular with citizens and the rates of murder
    and homicides have been falling then we don't have a national problem
    with firearms. What we have is politicians with out of date ideas.

    President Obama pointed out in the debates, "in my hometown of Chicago
    there's an awful lot of violence, and they're not using AK-47s. They're
    using cheap handguns,". That is the same in almost any city in the nation. "Cheap handguns", not $400, $500, $700, $1,000, etc. handguns that we would buy, but cheap "junk" that heaped up in bins in evidence rooms. They
    have tape holding the grips on (or in place of them), they're rusted and nothing proposed by any ban will touch them.

    Suicide rates for countries with few firearms are as high or higher than those in the U.S. and their rates haven't dropped. The means may be different, but the motivation and the desperation that drives people to this hopeless approach to relieving their pain is universal. Even in states and communities where firearms are not as common other means are found and rates of suicides overall may be higher or lower than in states/communities where firearms are far more common. It isn't the means.

    We need to solve the root causes of violent crime and suicide and not allow
    politicians with a failed 20+ year old agenda and no new worthwhile
    solutions to violence in America dictate to the entire nation from their
    personal ambition and fear.
     
  12. Kim

    Kim Member

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    Washington Post has an article today that gave Obama 2 pinochioes for the 40% of firearms sold without background BS that the MSM keeps repeating. Apparently this was a very small study of 300+ done 2 years before Brady checks were even done. It is hogwash but the MSM will NOT ever report the deception.
     
  13. Deadman644

    Deadman644 Member

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    If you want some interesting stats look at texas before CCL and After
     
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