Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians

[DMF]

. . . they headed there to serve the child abuse warrant . . .

No they were not! Why does this BS keep getting repeated? The ATF was there to serve an arrest warrant for Howell for federal firearms violations, and a search warrant for the illegal weapons and explosives. If people are going to debate this subject they should do a little research on the facts. :banghead:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#bureau

Why did the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raid the Branch Davidian compound on February 28, 1993?

The ATF raided the Branch Davidian compound to serve arrest and search warrants as part of an investigation into illegal posession of firearms and explosives there.

Would you like to read the text of the affidavit for the search warrant?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco_affidavit.html

 

[DMF]

Funny - how does the ATF get involved in a Child Abuse situation....

some would say fire-arms violations.... but how would they KNOW there were violations till(heh) after the fact.

You have it backwards. The investigation started based on information about federal firearms and explosives crimes, and while doing that investigation the ATF learned there were also allegations of abuse of the children.

I'd understand if they went to server warrants and a cop got shot

That's EXACTLY how it happened. The cops showed up to serve two warrants and they got shot. In fact four cops died and 16 others were wounded.

if they had a warrant... then they should have at least TRIED to serve it in a nomral way...

Yeah, because Howell and his followers were just going to calmly let six agents in suits in ties, walk in and slap the cuffs on Howell and seize the evidence.

They brought 70+ agents in the hope that speed, and the presence of overwhelming force would allow the warrants to be served with no violence. The fact that ATF lost the element of surprise, and that they underestimated the apocalyptic fantasies of the people of "Ranch Apocalypse," made the plan a failure. However, once again I say, the tatical errors of the ATF did not give Howell et al, the right to attack the agents that were there to serve those warrants.

 

[JoeWang]

This is all .gov cover up now

Sure. Murder 200 people and burn them alive, release "evidence" years later. Did you get the names and numbers?

They were all real people at one time. Alive and breathing citizens of the Great State of TX and the U.S. of A.

What a shame. Shame on us.

 

[Intune]

Just give us the metal front door to examine. Yeah, right. Weasels

 

[dog3]

I was going to stay out of this one. But I still have questions about this, and
I don't for one minute belive this "finding" at all.

Let's see the WHOLE bit, the chain-of-custody on those weapons
and the statements from those who recovered them.

Rather than go on with a rant, I'll just reiterate one from yet still another WACO thread.

What is;

---

-well said about the doors.
-"which leads me to believe that the ATF people shot and killed were hit in the intial
engagement."
- -or went down from friendly fire. Again, where are the ballistic reports? where are
the forensic reports?
---

While I certainly enjoyed a lot of the CSPAN coverage, I kept wondering when
the big questions were going to be asked. Things like chain of custody documents
on material evidence, things like who shot who, ballistic matching tests between rounds
recovered from the ATF kias and the ATFs weapons, that sort of thing.

AFAIAC, the flir tape was the most incredibly damning evidence ever produced.
The tHouse Government Reform Committee turned the tape over to the brits (who,
btw are the worlds best at killing civilians and covering it up) towed the party
line to a T. Reflections, please. Reflections that happen to match the cyclic
rates of inventory weapons in use at the time, and shaped like muzzle flash.
Shaped like muzzle flashes of weapons aimed into areas where bodies were found.

BTW, for those of you who don't know,

Edward Allard, who appeared in the tape, was a co-inventor of
the technology, and the top boy when it came to analysis. He invented
flir analysis. He had a stroke, and has not recovered and could not
give testamony.

Fred Zegel; the pentagon flir topdog expert, was said to have
rebutted Allards analysis. However, what isn't broadly reported, was
that when Zegel actually got to examine the first gen tape in
detail, he changed his appraisal and backed Allards findings.
--side note,<tinhats on!> after doing this, he collapsed in public from
"blood poisoning" and hasn't ever talked about the waco tape
since </tinhats>

Carlos Ghigliotti; probably had the best analysis background. He
was an expert, he was picked by the House Government Reform Committee
to review all the flir research. He finished his report, wherein he
claimed that there were muzzle flashes as Allard had said
originally. However, before he could present his report and
be questioned, his decomposing body was found in his
Laurel Md lab back in May 2000. Local medical examiner
said "heart attack". Case closed. No testamony, no report. Period.

Handed off to the brits.

Good thing too, nearly everyone who saw muzzle flashes
either died or d*mned near did.

My blood pressures starting to climb now, time to quit.

---

There are a LOT of unaddressed issues. Calling the creep Howell a monster and shrugging it
off just don't stand.

Keep in mind, the scene was bulldozed. that's pretty telling.

 

[molonlabe]

Good research. Any research into this issue will lead to to plenty of questions. It's easy to refer to someone by a hot button word like child abuser or white supremacist which if you researched it Randy Weaver was not. This justifies all kind of outrageous behavior by most normal folk. This is basic Psy-ops and we are exposed to it every day in the media, by Madison Avenue to governments influencing the masses and yes even the Brady group.

http://www1.minn.net/~graczar/psycholo.htm
http://www.tsubragg.com/psyop/index.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-info.htm
http://www.iwar.org.uk/psyops/

 

[standingbear]

the list is a moot point as far as justification of the tactics used that tradgic day,koresh was a psychotic basketcase into the doomsday yadda yadaa yadda.. and sending in the whole bag played into his sick fantasy.the whole thing was a flop.It would be my opinion that maybe we can learn from it.


..one could look at it from another angle too,more on those evil assault guns,yet those modified guns were illegal to begin with..illegally modified.the other stuff in the list is just parts..parts that one can get but it ALREADY is and has been illegal to modify scary look-alikes into these without the hoops and registration..yadda yadda.

I can see the sheeple now wondering how many more "koresh" wannabes are out there.good way to get some more restrictions on a roll.. doncha think?

 

[goalie]

DMF, I have a few questions for you:

1. Is or is it not true that David Koresh went jogging quite frequently? If so, why not arrest him then? Wouldn't serving the warrant be safer without the group's leader there?

2. Is it or is it not true that law enforcement officers had previously been to the compound and talked to Koresh without any violence?

 

[DMF]

goalie,

I'm sorry but Q1 is irrelevant. They needed to serve both warrants, the ARREST and SEARCH. It is pure speculation to say that if Howell had been arrested somewhere else that the others wouldn't have resisted. Based on the information from the undercover agent that was spending time at Ranch Apocalypse it was known that Howell was teaching the others to prepare for a final apocalyptic fight. There is no way to know if having a seperate operation would have worked.

However, the plan was to use surprise to serve the warrants at a time most of the adults would be working in areas away from where ATF believed the majority of the weapons were. I don't think anyone would argue that once the element of surprise was lost the odds of serving the warrants peacefully went down dramatically. However, hindsight is 20/20.

Also, reread what I quoted from Higgins earlier. Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume that there was a tactical error, that doesn't justify the attack by Howell and his followers.

Q2, ATF had developed information through state and local LE, and their undercover agent. They knew that Howell had NO interest in allowing anyone from ATF come out and peacefully search the property. In addition ATF was not just going to search, they were going to arrest Howell. That changes the whole situation.

It was hoped by using the large raid that violence would be prevented. Again, the decision to continue after the people at Ranch Apocalypse can be debated endlessly, but it doesn't change the fact that Howell and his followers chose the path of violence, and attacked law enforcement officers serving valid warrants.

 

[DMF]

It's easy to refer to someone by a hot button word like child abuser or white supremacist which if you researched it Randy Weaver was not.

White supremacist or separatist, either way Weaver was a racist. However, what he believed is irrelevant, the illegal actions he took were quite relevant. For a synopsis of what happened with Weaver, take a look at the facts: http://thehighroad.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1366453 It spares no criticism of the government, but also shows that Weaver wasn't just a guy that was persecuted by the government.

As for Howell, he was abusing children, and he was stockpiling ILLEGAL weapons and explosives. It is not psy-ops to tell the truth about those things, they are relevant to the case.

 

[goalie]

There is no way to know if having a seperate operation would have worked.

Well, it sure couldn't have worked out any worse. Also, just saying something is irrelevant does not make it so. It usually just means that someone doesn't want to address the issue at hand.

The bottom line is that you think it was a good idea to storm in and do a no-knock raid on a group of people who believed (and it was public knowledge) that they were going to end up at war with the government. I would argue that it would have been much more reasonable to take a little, or even a lot more time and figure out a way to deal with the situation in a way that didn't involve swat team tactics. It is my opinion that the problem wasn't the tactics used, it was that the people in charge were thinking tactically at all instead of thinking strategically.

 

[DMF]

Regarding the IR evidence, the BS about the FBI targetting the occupants on the final day is pure fantasy.

Go here to read a portion of the report on the IR evidence (excerpt originally published in the Dallas Morning News in May 2000):
http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco157.html

On all of this, get the facts, and not just one side of the facts. I strongly suspect that most here have never really spent time on looking at any information other than the anti-ATF/FBI stuff. Take some time to look at the other side.

Feel free to read Danforth's entire report, published in July 2000, here: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/DanforthRpt.pdf

 

[goalie]

DMF, what are your thoughts on the weapons, the chain of evidence, and the availability of them to the defense attorneys of the charged Davidians who survived?

 

[DMF]

. . . just means that someone doesn't want to address the issue at hand.

Actually I did address the issue at hand. I stated it was irrelevant, and stated why I thought it was irrelevant.

With regard to tactics, and taking time to plan, ATF had been working on the operation for months. The concerns were safety, and evidence. In HINDSIGHT it's easy to say they were foolish, but at the time the agents had been doing their best to plan the service of the warrants in a way that would be safe, and allow the evidence to be collected. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but again the tactical errors by ATF did not somehow give Howell and the others justification for attacking the agents.

 

[DMF]

goalie, read Danforth's report. It's all explained in great detail there.

 

[molonlabe]

White supremacist or separatist, either way Weaver was a racist. However, what he believed is irrelevant, the illegal actions he took were quite relevant.

You mean the part where the ATF paid him to cut a shotgun down?

Or not showing up for his hearing part?

 

[goalie]

In regards to Weaver, well, I guess those shoot-to-kill on sight orders don't bother DMF either. They should give those orders any time someone cuts a shotgun down to 17.5 inches instead of the required 18 inches.

 

[Intune]

DMF, do you recall the reason given for the assault against the compound on day 51?

 

[DMF]

DMF, do you recall the reason given for the assault against the compound on day 51?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#attorney

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/renoopeningst.html

We will never know whether there was a better solution. Had we not acted when we did, Koresh had brought things to a sudden and violent finish as he had rehearsed, we would probably be here today anyhow. And you would be asking me why I hadn't taken action earlier; why we had not tried to use tear gas to resolve the situation. Everyone involved in the events of April the 19th made their best judgments based on all the information we had. We have tried as hard as we can to study what happened at Waco, to learn from our experience and to make changes so that as we go forward, we can be as prepared as possible to deal with such future situations.

Attorney General Janet Reno, 1 Aug 95

 

[M1911Owner]

Wow!! They owed thousands of dollars in unpaid transfer taxes!!! Sounds like a good enough reason to me to lay siege to a church, seal in the congregation, complete with women and children, and burn the place to the ground with them inside.

:banghead:

 

[Intune]

Nope, ain't gonna fly DMF. Do you not recall, "they're hurting the children so we have to go in" bs? I don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served. The fact that the gov would't let it go to day 52 is what rankles me.

 

[DMF]

Well Intune, wait to day 7, wait for him to finish his writings, wait to day 52, wait day 53, wait to day 152, when does it stop? Do you not remember that there many people asking why the government was not doing something to get those children out? I remember it clearly. Hell, within hours of the initial shootout, there were pundits whining that the government should launch another assault on the compound.

It was a Catch-22. Do nothing, and people like you would be whining that they left those children there to suffer. Do nothing, and if Howell and the other adults started executing children, then people like you would be crying, "if only they had gone in stop him this wouldn't have happened." Do something and it goes wrong and people like you whine that they didn't wait another day.

It's easy to sit back now and say it was a bad choice. However, during that 51 days the people in the DOJ were struggling with how to resolve the standoff. Whether it happened on day 51, day 52, or a year later, eventually something had to be done.

To say you don't care about the validity of warrants is ludicrous. It is central to the whole tragedy, as the first link in the chain of the events leading to that fire. Had Howell and the others allowed those warrants to be served no one would have been killed. The murders of Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Rob Williams, and Steve Willis, set in motion one the worst tragedies in our nation. However, it was started by Howell and the other Branch Davidians. To ignore that is to ignore the truth about what went on at Ranch Apocalypse.

Again I quote Director Higgins: "By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?"

 

[Intune]

DMF, I'm gonna let you slide on the multiple "people like you" references.

Where did I refer to the validity or lack thereof in reference to the warrants? I merely granted their manner of service as a given. You also sidestepped the govs stated pressing reason for going in on day 51.

Please don't construe my discussion of this as support for the BD's. Federal, state or local LE's come to my door with a warrant (they did have the warrants with them, right?) come on in gents. Want some coffee?

There wasn't a chain of events that led to that fire. There was day 51.

 

[DMF]

You said that you, "don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served." I pointed out that is the key to whole tragedy.

As for the "people like you" comments. I stand by them. You and others that wanted another day, ignore the fact that people were clamoring for the government to "do something for those children trapped in the compound."

To say there was no chain of events is also ludicrous. There can be no "day 51," without the events of the preceeding 50 days leading up that day. To ignore the preceeding 50 days, makes it appear that the government made no effort to negotiate a surrender, and ignores the fact they were trying to come up with other solutions to the problem. However, all the choices, including waiting longer carried risks to the occupants of the compound.

So tell me how long should the government have left those kids there, before taking action? What would you, and the rest of the public, say if the FBI had waited longer, but Howell and the others had harmed those children while the government stood by and did nothing? What is your grand solution to getting those children out? You have the advantage of more than a decade of hindsight. So you tell me what the DOJ should have to done to resolve that situation in a manner that would have had ZERO RISK to the occupants of the compound. Because that is what the MMQB'ing of this subject is really all about, saying that there needed to be a ZERO RISK solution. It is an impossible standard to hold anyone to.

There was no zero risk option, as I pointed out in my previous post. Do nothing and the kids suffer, and may have been hurt or killed by Howell and the others. Do something, and there may be a chance of getting the kids out, but there is a risk that things will go bad. All options including waiting for your "day 52" had serious risks.

Would you prefer that DOJ had brought in BOP to erect a fence around Ranch Apocalypse, and call it the Mt. Carmel Penitentiary? What to do about the kids inside though?

 

[M1911Owner]

Ya, DMF, it wouldn't have made any sense to just back down about this few thousand dollars of taxes, and deal with it another day, would it? No, Ms. Reno had to prove that she had the biggest c*ck in Washington DC. (I apologize for the language, but it seems and appropriate and necessary for the point.) Instead she had to burn the place down and kill most of them.