Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians

[Intune]

You said that you, "don't care about the various warrants and how properly/improperly they were served." I pointed out that is the key to whole tragedy.

Really? Serving those warrants killed 80+ people? Hmmm. You sure it wasn’t when the BD’s bought their first AR15? Or the Nat Guards AFV? Maybe it was right when they bought that Coleman lantern fuel. The FBI breaching those walls on day 51 is what caused those people to die on that day. Not the day before, not the day after and not when those warrants were served.

As for the "people like you" comments. I stand by them. You and others that wanted another day, ignore the fact that people were clamoring for the government to "do something for those children trapped in the compound."

What “people†were “clamoring?†Was it the same “people†who “clamor†for lower taxes? Immigration laws? The war in Iraq? The environment? Gas prices? SUV’s? The economy? The gov sure has hopped on those issues. “We have 51 days to pacify Iraq and then we’re outta here.†Yeah, ok.

There can be no "day 51," without the events of the preceeding 50 days leading up that day.

How many lives were lost following the initial confrontation? Still love to see that front door btw. The ATF/FBI was losing face (in their minds) with each and every passing day. I don’t care how much face our gov loses, they better damn well do nothing if their actions could result in the death of one, much less 80, citizens.

There was no zero risk option, as I pointed out in my previous post. Do nothing and the kids suffer, and may have been hurt or killed by Howell and the others. Do something, and there may be a chance of getting the kids out, but there is a risk that things will go bad. All options including waiting for your "day 52" had serious risks.

Oh, the kids were suffering alright and it came as a direct result of the psych-ops that the FBI was conducting. The clandestine microphones that the feebs had planted would have indicated that mass murder was taking place. No such indication was given. In fact, conversations were intercepted that would indicate further assault upon the compound would bring dire consequences to the inhabitants. All options had serious risks but assaulting the buildings posed the most grave one for the inhabitants. Guess which option they chose?

Would you prefer that DOJ had brought in BOP to erect a fence around Ranch Apocalypse, and call it the Mt. Carmel Penitentiary? What to do about the kids inside though?

What I would have preferred is for the FBI (our public servants) to continue negotiations no matter how long it took to see the situation resolved peacefully. 52 days or 300. Oh, they did something about the kids inside (who thought they were safe with their parents) alright. And at the same time served notice to the public that our government has a finite amount of patience when it comes to alleged lawbreakers.

You people think that the government can do no wrong. You people believe that when a citizen is accused of a crime it is well within the bounds of governmental policy to precipitate actions that will probably result in the immolation of his/her family and friends. You people think that the government should wait a proscribed amount of time (or until it feels embarrassment) and then just do what it came to do no matter the outcome. You people feel that the government is always right and that citizens should acquiesce to its demands at all times. You people paint with a broad brush because it blends the individual into the unwashed masses of the citizenry thereby enabling sanctions of God given rights. You people.

Pretty close to how you feel DMF? Yeah, you had me nailed too.

 

[GUNSMOKE45441]

I talked to one of the agents involved, I asked if it were true foriegn troops were involved, his reply"so what if there were" nuff said!!!

 

[Dog]

I don't agree with the way any of it was handled. The BATF was wrong for staging such a raid in the first place over a tax law. Then the BATF screws it up and turn it over to the FBI, who doesn't do any better. There was a zero risk option. Leave and come back another day. These people were inocent untill proven quilty. They had no proof of child abuse, automatic weapons, or drug manufacturing (the reason they used to get the military invovled).

Unfortunately, we will never know the truth. The people who know the truth are either dead or think they have to much to loose to tell the truth. My feelings are what we are aloud to know is somewhere in the middle of the truth.

 

[goalie]

Well, one thing I do know is that, like the Randy Weaver incident, the level of force used was vastly disproportional to the offense in question. If anything, it should be more difficult for the federal government to justify using deadly force than it is for a civilian on the street.

 

[biere]

On July 30, 1992, gun dealer Henry McMahon called
Koresh, saying ATF agents were at his home asking questions
about him. "Tell them to come out here," replied Koresh. apfn.org/apfn/appointment.asp

Cameraman Jim Peeler of Waco's KWTX-TV had run into David Jones, a Davidian and U.S. Mail carrier, on a rural road near Mount Carmel shortly before the raid. When Jones learned the cameraman was looking for the Davidian residence, Jones raced back to alert Koresh. The bloody clash ensued.
http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/19/waco/index.html

Prior to being occupied by Koresh's group, that compound had been rented out. I don't remember to whom. When they took over the building, they found a lot of chemicals and chemical equipment left by the prior occupants. The Davidians called in the local sherrif, and the local sherrif hauled the stuff away. End of story.

http://www.free-market.info/main9904b/messages/746542829.html

The atf had an insider and for a while they rented a house across from the Koresh HOUSE. I don't call a wood building a compound. The atf should call it tinder.

The local police had investigated allegations of child abuse in the past, they found nothing.

The government had the remains of the building bulldozed too quickly for proper study, this from the texas rangers as I recall.

I have done my research about waco. No matter how bad Koresh was as a man, the government lied about meth to gain use of military helicopters and pilots for those helicopters.

The government hearings and other stuff make me sick to my stomach when I see how the survivors were treated.

I will proudly sit in the tin foil hat section because there is no way this was an acceptable way to serve a warrant filled with false info. That House the koresh folks lived in was roughly 2/3 rds filled with women and children.

 

[PaleRyder]

I read a Federal judge ruled private citizens can ideed make their own fully automatic machine gun. It's only illegal to transfer that gun to someone else. The ruling may have been after Waco, however.

 

[Mannlicher]

I always doubt the authenticity of stuff like this

 

[WilderBill]

So, DMF, you think there were people clamering to get the children out?
As it happens you are right on that one.
By about day 45, there were dozens of people in the DFW area who were becoming aware of each other and the need to stop that madness.
No doubt, there were lots more that would have soon found each other by word of mouth.
I think that in another week or so, the .gov perimeter would have been inside of a larger perimeter of armed, pissed off Texans.
I do recall, fairly early in the seige, a disscussion about airdropping food and ammo to them. It was determined that the Davidians would mistake it for a government straffing run and probably shoot down their help, so it never happened.

One thing the whole thing did do, it proved that to have an effective home defense arsonal, you need to be able to stop tanks and helicopters as well as the average home invader.

I do hope the .gov has got that kind of crap out of it's system.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of us here no longer have any tolerence for that type of taxpayer funded insanity.

 

[Mark in California]

Who Cares Why They Were There, Its What They Did:

I think you are all missing the point. When it was decided to continue the raid even after the element of surprise was lost, a far-reaching decision was made. It was to be an armed assault. Prime time and TV ready. America’s â€bestâ€, protecting Truth, Justice and the American Way of Life.

Having made that decision, then they should not have turned back. I think it was the wrong decision, and that they should have pulled back and reconsider options, but that would mean telling the tag-along media that they had lost control of the operation.

However, when it had been decided to take the objective, and BATF should have gone in without hesitation. Like Normandy the assault team should have been totally dedicated to its objective. Anything less was a failure. To go into a blown operation, and then not follow it thru to its conclusion was both a command and an operational failure. These people should never again be trusted with weapons, positions of trust, or any sort of responsibility over others because of their inability to plan and carry out a life or death operation, which they caused.

Not having enough troops for an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command.

Not having proper or enough weapons take on an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command.

Not having the proper mind-set to take on an enemy laying in wait was a failure of command, planning, training and personel.

Deserting your assignment in the face of the enemy was cowardice.

This was a total failure of command. BATF started a fight they were not prepared for, and then allowed it to become an insurrection. Finally the FBI allowed it to continue until they watched almost everyone (men, women and children) burn to death while still aiming weapons at them so they could not escape.

 

[WilderBill]

There is a comon term for that type of management style.
It involves the word cluster, if you get my meaning.
Not only were everyone from the President on down in that chain of command in the cluster, but the Davidians, who were on the bottom on the pile had the least chance of cralin gout of it.

I'm not saying that Koresh was a saint or anything.
He probably needed to be arrested along with some of his followers.
The point here is that you don't 'save the children' by shooting into their home and later burning it to the grond with them inside.

No matter what the intent was, the outcome was government sanctioned murder and a huge cover up that continues to this day.
If that had been done by a foreign government, say Mexico, trying to save Mexican nationals held in the compound, then I beleive Mexico would be our 51st State by now.

 

[cordex]

With regard to tactics, and taking time to plan, ATF had been working on the operation for months. The concerns were safety, and evidence. In HINDSIGHT it's easy to say they were foolish, but at the time the agents had been doing their best to plan the service of the warrants in a way that would be safe, and allow the evidence to be collected. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but again the tactical errors by ATF did not somehow give Howell and the others justification for attacking the agents.

DMF, you're a cop, right? Lets say you were responding to a report of a man with a gun. You knew this guy, and knew that he was crazy. Moreover, you knew that his particular insanity revolved around the belief that evil, people-eating apes were going to come feast on his brains. If you didn't want a fight, would you dress up in a King Kong suit and run at him screaming "Oooga boooga give me BRAINS!"?

Let's take the lesson we just learned from that example.

If you know:
1. that you're going after well-armed loonies with a persecution complex who
2. believe that the government is going to come kill them and
3. plan on staging a last stand at Ranch Apocalypse when the government death squads come.

How do you handle the situation? Do you:
a) Send a couple of nonthreatening agents to the door with a search warrant to ask to be let in. This way, if things go south it'll likely end up with the door closed in the agents' face.
b) Accept Vern's invitation to come into the compound after you talk to his buddy the gun dealer.
c) Dress up a team of agents to look like the most intimidating, angry, blood-seeking, government death-squad that the Davidians could have ever dreamed up. Have them charge the compound and then act shocked when the Davidians start shooting at what they see as government goons whose sole purpose is to come kill them.
d) Search for some other solution that does not involve giving credibility to the deepest fears of the loonies you're going after.

If I spent a good chunk of my life believing that the government was going to come kill me, and suddenly I see cattle-cars full of agents clad in ninja suits carrying (and maybe firing) automatic weapons, charging at my house, I might be a little trigger-happy to. Hell, even if I didn't spend my life believing that, I still might be inclined to defend myself. The manner in which the ATF executed their warrant (ignoring for the moment the content and validity of the warrant) could not have been more perfectly suited to picking a fight with the Davidians. You say this is obvious in hindsight. I say it HAD to have been obvious in the planning stages. They had an agent who spent a lot of time with the Davidians. They knew the mentality. They had to know what would happen when they charged in doing their level best to look like the manifestation of David Koresh's predictions. I just can't believe an agency could be that utterly and criminally incompetant.

Does that excuse the Davidians? Not at all! It was - as I said - what happens when one group of heavily armed crazies confronts another group of heavily armed crazies. Both sides were looking for a fight. Both sides found one. I tend to make it a point to avoid getting caught in the middle of mutual combat when possible.