Webley cylinders

[tark]

I have a Webley Mk VI that has been the subject of a recent thread, and I have noticed something about the gun that perhaps one of you can answer. Why is the bore .455 and the cylinder .450? As soon as the bullet leaves the case mouth, it is squeezed down to .450 by the cylinder before jumping into a bore that is .455! I have measured all six throats and they all measure .450. A friends gun is the same way.

It shoots accurately with my reduced load (I know, now, that you should NEVER shoot factory 45 autos) but the bullets are shaving lead as they pass through the narrow throat, and the residue builds up rapidly enough to make loading difficult after a few cylinders full of shooting.

Here is my question. Would it be a good idea to open up the cylinder throats, say, two or three thousands? I shoot commercially cast .452 dia. 255 gr lead. I suppose I should just leave it alone because it IS accurate, but that shaved lead is really messy.....

 

[natman]

The condition you describe is common with Webleys. It makes no sense to me, but lots of other things on English machinery don't either. Try the Remington 250 grain .454 lead bullet which has a conical base.

I wouldn't fiddle with it, but if you do please post the results.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My understanding is that the pressure required to force the bullet through the throat improved the powder burning efficiency and consistency. No problem, since the large hollow base on the bullet allowed it to fully expand into the rifling of the barrel.

 

[Kaeto]

The original Webley Mk II rounds were loaded with cordite which needed the constriction of the cylinder to slow the projectile down enough for the burning cordite to develop full power.

 

[unspellable]

Webley MK VI bullet

The Webley MK VI (and some other Webleys) was intended to use a bullet with a large hollow in the base along the lines of a Minie ball which expanded into the bore. The system worked, back in the day the Webley target revolvers were the ones to beat at Camp Perry.

The 455 Colt was an American/Canadian civilian version of the Webley cartridge and had a 256 grain lead bullet with a large cavity in the base. These were available when the Mark VIs hit the surplus market so I never understood the point of converting to 45 ACP. I used to buy them off the shelf at my local gun shop.

 

[rcmodel]

Try this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...g-colt-455-diameter-250-grain-lead-round-nose

rc

 

[tark]

Thanks for the info, one and all. I think I will open up one throat to 452 and see if any difference is noticed. With any improvement, or just no improvement but solved the shaving of lead, I will open up the rest. I wonder how the Brits dealt with the lead shaving problem, because it really IS a problem. Three to four cylinders worth of ammo results in a lot of shaved lead in the chamber, enough to inhibit loading. Not to mention a gummed up gun. Will post results tomorrow

 

[Lone Star]

I've never heard of your lead shaving issue. Interesting. Have you checked cylinder alignment with a range rod? It may be a timing issue.

The .455 Colt was just the civilian name used by Colt for the MK I .455 load.
The post above is incorrect. It used the same 265 (not 256) grain bullet of the MK II load, but was first loaded with black powder. When Cordite was adopted as the powder, the Brits felt it burned better in the shorter MK II case.

But .455 Colt with smokeless powder was rated at 700 FPS and the MK II ammo was just at about 600 FPS! The Webley, Colt, and S&W .455's will all use the MK I/.455 Colt load, so I'd have preferred it. American and Canadian powders were superior to Cordite, and were less erosive to the bore. By WWII, some UK ammo was loaded with conventional flake powders, the cases being marked with a Z, as in .38-200 ammo marked 2Z.

I do not know of Webley ever being popular at Camp Perry. Perhaps the poster meant the British equivalent, the Bisley range? Even there, the famed marksman Walter Winans shot S&W .44's. (New Model No. 3.) Colts were also popular, the Colt Bisley Modal even being named for that range.

 

[tark]

Interesting post, Lone Star. The FIRST thing I checked before I bought the gun was timing and cylinder alignment. Timing in a Webley can be rather difficult to assess, because everything is kind of disjointed and loosey-goosey until you pull the trigger far enough to release the hammer at which point everything tightens up. The hand on a Webley is an important part of the locking process. All six chambers were aligned and locking up with no play. The shaved lead I am encountering is in the form of a neat ring of lead shaved from the bullet as it jumps from the cylinder to the barrel The ring of lead is deposited in the chamber of the cylinder.

But no more. I opened one chamber to .453 and the leading went away. The other five followed in short order and the gun no longer shaves lead. Accuracy which was already good; got a lot better. That old gun now puts them into four inches at 25 yards, exactly to point of aim. Not bad for an old war horse that went through two world wars. (It was made in 1917)

I am loading 3.5 grains of 700X behind a 255 .452 diameter 45 Colt bullet. 700X is a shotgun powder, but powder is hard to find these days and 700X falls neatly between Bullseye and Unique as to burning rate. It is also an excellent pistol powder. Im getting about 650 FPS and that should be a good, safe load for the old girl

 

[Kaeto]

I currently have a dozen .455 Colt rounds.

 

[Billy Shears]

Interestingly, I took my Webley Mk. VI for a last trip to the range to shoot up all the .455 ammo I had before I sell it -- I am about to list it on gunbroker.com. I had a box of Hornady factory ammo that duplicates the old British Mk II load exactly. I also had a box of reloads that someone made for me, with 255 grain Keith bullets over 6 grains of unique, to achieve 750fps. I never noticed any lead shaving, but I did notice that the Hornady factory ammo was quite accurate, but the reloads, while accurate enough at the short range at which I was shooting, were key holing. I don't know if that's because the reloader was using .452 bullets, instead of the proper .455, or if it's because the Keith bullets didn't have that big hollow base to expand into the rifling after being squeezed through the constricted chambers. But whatever the cause of it was, they were key holing badly.

 

[Lone Star]

Tark-

Great news!

 

[unspellable]

455 and leading.

The 455 Colt ammo I had was loaded with a 265 grain hollow based bullet. The 256 figure above was a case of my fingers typing faster than my brain.

The Webley Mk VI I had was peace time production and never saw service. It was in mint unused condition. It locked up tighter than a drum and had good alignment. I never experienced any leading either with the factory 455 Colt loads or hand loads using bullets intended for 45 Colt. The 455 Colt factory loads had swaged bullets presumably of pure lead and quite soft.

I once recovered some 45 ACP FMJ bullets fired from a Webley and found rifling on only one side of the bullet.

The Webley Green target models did have a day in the sun a Camp Perry.

 

[unspellable]

PS. When I was younger and less wise I had a Webley Green that chambered 45 Colt. (Probably meant for 45 Eley or some such.) On the advice of the dealer I bought it from I used 45 Colt factory loads in it. Eventually the forcing cone developed a crack. Now that I'm older and wiser I realize the old girl was meant for milder black powder loads.