redbone
Member
You are not evil. You saved that Webley from a lifetime of pawnshopitis.
Webley MARK VI 455
- Thread starter GunnyUSMC
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OP
GunnyUSMC
Member
I have no plans to alter this revolver. If I wish to shoot a revolver with 45AR or 45ACP I will just use one of my Colt 1917s.
Un altered Webleys are getting harder to find.
There is a good chance the velocity came from the marketing department. It would be interesting to find some chronographed results.
1KPerDay
Member
I don't think you're a thief. They probably paid 12 bucks for it. They wouldn't have sold it to you if they didn't make a sizable profit.
Cool revolver!
MoscowMike
Member
Gunny -
I'm glad you aren't planning to alter it. Mine was shaved for 45 ACP, and I discovered that the cylinder had bulged so it was difficult to extract even mild handloads. Fortunately I found a new cylinder (also shaved) and have had fun creating appropriate loads in 45 AR cases.
You can get more info on the British Militaria forums. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
If you decide to handload, I have read the best results come from hollow base bullets because of the tight forcing cone, which makes it difficult for many lead bullets to grip the rifling. Bill Benny in Pennsylvania ( [email protected] ) casts both round nose and flat nose varieties.
I found an appropriate leather holster, made in India, on ebay, and am tempted to get a Sam Browne belt.
Enjoy your find!
I'm glad you aren't planning to alter it. Mine was shaved for 45 ACP, and I discovered that the cylinder had bulged so it was difficult to extract even mild handloads. Fortunately I found a new cylinder (also shaved) and have had fun creating appropriate loads in 45 AR cases.
You can get more info on the British Militaria forums. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
If you decide to handload, I have read the best results come from hollow base bullets because of the tight forcing cone, which makes it difficult for many lead bullets to grip the rifling. Bill Benny in Pennsylvania ( [email protected] ) casts both round nose and flat nose varieties.
I found an appropriate leather holster, made in India, on ebay, and am tempted to get a Sam Browne belt.
Enjoy your find!
lonegunman
Member
Nice catch, I found an Enfield MK VI a few years ago, minty with a holster in a local pawn shop.
Kaeto
Member
Mine is also shaved. I shoot it with handloads of .45 ACP on moon clips , .45 AutoRim , and thanks to a machined disk I found on E-Bay for $20.00 with Webley Mk 2 rounds.
There is a company in france that sells reloading kits for .455 Webley Mk 2. They sell brass, and copper washed projectiles. They even carry reloading kits for Pinfire rounds.
http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?PBMInit=1
There is a company in france that sells reloading kits for .455 Webley Mk 2. They sell brass, and copper washed projectiles. They even carry reloading kits for Pinfire rounds.
http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?PBMInit=1
I always wanted one of those old revolvers since seeing the movie Zulu. I gave up because all I ever seen were overpriced ones or those with cylinders shortened for accept .45ACP with moon clips.
The original load use 260gr or 265gr load bullet at about 600fps so it would seem stupid to try to use .45ACP in such old revolvers.
Having bought East German Makarov the search is over because I don't need another gun now.
The original load use 260gr or 265gr load bullet at about 600fps so it would seem stupid to try to use .45ACP in such old revolvers.
Having bought East German Makarov the search is over because I don't need another gun now.
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kBob
Member
Someone correct me if you will as I can not find my Nonte book on cartridge conversions, but my understanding is that one can make very usable .455 Webley by trimming back .45 Long Colt cases. Don't start on the Long Colt thing, I said that to be sure to differintiate as we have been mentioning .45 ACP and .45 AR.....and there was a time when boxes were so marked. I would bet the old Lyman Hollow base 175 grain .454 cast bullet would make great ammo for these as well, if you could find the molds. Just for plinking one might try one of the Round ball bullets used in ".44 cal" BP revolvers.
-kBob
-kBob
Vern Humphrey
Member
The .455 Webley is one of several rounds that differ from the .45 Colt in three ways:
1. Case length
2. Rim thickness
3. Pressure.
If you have a Colt New Service or S&W Hand Ejector in .455 Webley, or any of those other British .45 cartridges, you can rent a reamer from Clymer that will solve your problems. It will move the throat forward, so the chamber will accept a .45 Colt cartridge. Once you've done that, you can use the reamer's cutting shoulder. With the chamber at the proper depth, you can SLOWLY and CAREFULLY cut a recess for the rim (which will be less than 0.03" deep) that will allow you to fire .45 Colt ammunition in your gun.
I do not know if Clymer offers a reamer that merely cuts the recess, so you can modify a Webley for the thicker Colt rim, and trim .45 Colt brass to the proper length. Maybe someone who has a .455 Webley might have enough interest to call and ask.
Panzerschwein
member
Very cool. A Webley modified to .45 Colt would make a great bear gun if loded with Buffalo Bore hard cast +P loads.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Well, you can't modify it to .45 Colt -- the cylinder isn't long enough. But by cutting recesses for the thicker .45 Colt rim, you can use cut down .45 Colt cases. You need to hold velocities and pressures down with this revolver -- the original ammo drove a 260 grain bullet (or thereabouts) to a velocity of about 600 fps. You don't want to exceed that with handloads.
OP
OP
GunnyUSMC
Member
I have two EMF New Dakota Series 45 Colt 1873 Single Action Revolvers and I also have two Colt 1917s in 45 ACP.
There is no need to convert this gun just to shoot it.
I did find a box of 455 Webley for $37 plus shipping. Came out to $0.92 a round. I brought it to work the other day to shoot in the test fire room. My coworker is a big gun guy but had never shot a Webly. So we loaded it up and he shot 6 rounds into a quarter size group at 15 feet. I then told him the cost of the ammo (he's a reloader) and he liked to choke and then we laughed and shot it some more.
I have to say that it's fun to shoot, but I like shooting my Dakotas better.
There is no need to convert this gun just to shoot it.
I did find a box of 455 Webley for $37 plus shipping. Came out to $0.92 a round. I brought it to work the other day to shoot in the test fire room. My coworker is a big gun guy but had never shot a Webly. So we loaded it up and he shot 6 rounds into a quarter size group at 15 feet. I then told him the cost of the ammo (he's a reloader) and he liked to choke and then we laughed and shot it some more.
I have to say that it's fun to shoot, but I like shooting my Dakotas better.
cxm
Member
The gun in the photo is a military production... you can see the British War Dept. (WD) broad arrow marks in several places... on the right side the double arrow ( -><- ) shows it was sold out of WD inventory. The photos show other WD broad arrow ( -> ) marks on the back strap and other places... if you look around you will probably find more... Brits liked to put marks on guns.
It is possible your revolver whilst being a WD procurement was never actually issued. Officers often bought their own side arms out of WD stocks... perhaps at a concessionary price...Up to WWI (and after) British officers purchased their own revolvers... It was not considered necessary to arm officers with sidearms in those days as they were expected to lead their troops using sword or simply their swagger stick!!!
This of course didn't last at all long, and even as early as the Maadist wars in Sudan and the suppression of the Zulu uprising and the Boar Wars in South Africa British officers were arming themselves... Subaltern Winston Churchill for example carried a Mauser Broom Handle. Not surprisingly Webley revolvers were much favored by British officers, probably in no small part because of ammo availability... by WWI big Smith & Wesson and Colt's revolvers chambered for .455 had achieved some little popularity. Officers also favored such giant sidearms as the Webley-Forsbury Automatic revolvers and the .455 Webley Automatics. By WWI Colt's was making a .455 Webly Auto version of the Colt's 1911.
That is a very nice old gun... looks to be in good shape... hope you enjoy it ...
For what it is worth, this outfit advertises they still have Fiocchi .455 Webley in stock...
https://swfa.com/catalog/product/view/id/101201/category/11766/
Hope you enjoy your gun it is a real classic...
V/r
Chuck
It is possible your revolver whilst being a WD procurement was never actually issued. Officers often bought their own side arms out of WD stocks... perhaps at a concessionary price...Up to WWI (and after) British officers purchased their own revolvers... It was not considered necessary to arm officers with sidearms in those days as they were expected to lead their troops using sword or simply their swagger stick!!!
This of course didn't last at all long, and even as early as the Maadist wars in Sudan and the suppression of the Zulu uprising and the Boar Wars in South Africa British officers were arming themselves... Subaltern Winston Churchill for example carried a Mauser Broom Handle. Not surprisingly Webley revolvers were much favored by British officers, probably in no small part because of ammo availability... by WWI big Smith & Wesson and Colt's revolvers chambered for .455 had achieved some little popularity. Officers also favored such giant sidearms as the Webley-Forsbury Automatic revolvers and the .455 Webley Automatics. By WWI Colt's was making a .455 Webly Auto version of the Colt's 1911.
That is a very nice old gun... looks to be in good shape... hope you enjoy it ...
For what it is worth, this outfit advertises they still have Fiocchi .455 Webley in stock...
https://swfa.com/catalog/product/view/id/101201/category/11766/
Hope you enjoy your gun it is a real classic...
V/r
Chuck
I think British officers always had pistols, from the time they came into wide use. You can see their saddle holsters in paintings. One of Maj. Pitcairn's pistols may have fired the Shot Heard Around the World.
By the Crimean War in the 1850's, revolvers by Colt (M-1851 Navy) and by Adams, Beaumont, and Tranter were popular, although the .36 Colt was sometimes found lacking in stopping power during the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857.
Prior to buying his famous Mauser C-96, Churchill wore a Wilkinson-Webley .455 (Model of 1892) and in 1915, he bought a Colt .45 auto before leaving for the war in France. During WWII, as Prime Minister, he often wore this .45 under his coat and the outline shows distinctly in a pic of him in a white suit at Yalta or in the Middle East.. This gun is a commercial .45 ACP, not a .455. Colt also presented him with a .45 Commander about 1950.
I believe these guns and others were in possession of the Churchill family at the time the terrible gun law of 1997 passed. I doubt that the Churchills can own them now, so they're probably in museums. The Mauser is believed to be in the hands of a private collector, who wishes to remain anonymous.
Some years ago, Man at Arms did an article on four Churchill pistols, allowed by the then Lord Churchill. It was very interesting. A British friend sent me a news article last year showing Lord Churchill holding a flintlock pistol that had belonged to John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough, the victor of the Battle of Blenheim. A pair of these antique pistols still remain in family hands, being too old to be covered under the grim 1997 gun control act. Judging from the photos these pistols have been well cared for.
BTW, the future Sir Winston Churchill, KG, etc., was born in Blenheim Palace, a gift of the nation to John Churchill after Blenheim. If you haven't seen this place, look up photos. You'll be impressed! One thing that you may ask is, who cuts the grass here?! The HVAC bills must be enormous, and the place must take a number of servants to run.
British officers could buy their swords and pistols, and rifles if desired, through any commercial shops, or from the Army & Navy Cooperative Society. These would usually be commercial guns, with a much nicer finish than the official MK models of Webley and with honed actions for added smoothness. Or, they could purchase revolvers Out of Stores, meaning from govt. supplies. Those would then be marked with opposing Broad Arrows, meaning Sold Out of Stores.
The Wilkinson Sword Company had Webley make up special models of revolvers to their specs, for sale to officers who came to the firm for their swords. These, and WG models, were the nicest Webleys.
I think that after 1920, when the first of the increasingly nasty British gun laws appeared, officers were issued revolvers and those had to be carried on duty, not personal guns. However, I believe their swords are still privately purchased. The best seem to be made by Pooley Sword, formed by former Wilkinson employees after Wilkinson folded a few years ago.
BTW, my own first handgun, at age 13, was a Webley MK VI, bought for me by my mother. I later owned one made by Enfield in 1926. Quality of the arsenal-made one was identical to Webley quality. You had to read the markings to see who made which.
By the Crimean War in the 1850's, revolvers by Colt (M-1851 Navy) and by Adams, Beaumont, and Tranter were popular, although the .36 Colt was sometimes found lacking in stopping power during the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857.
Prior to buying his famous Mauser C-96, Churchill wore a Wilkinson-Webley .455 (Model of 1892) and in 1915, he bought a Colt .45 auto before leaving for the war in France. During WWII, as Prime Minister, he often wore this .45 under his coat and the outline shows distinctly in a pic of him in a white suit at Yalta or in the Middle East.. This gun is a commercial .45 ACP, not a .455. Colt also presented him with a .45 Commander about 1950.
I believe these guns and others were in possession of the Churchill family at the time the terrible gun law of 1997 passed. I doubt that the Churchills can own them now, so they're probably in museums. The Mauser is believed to be in the hands of a private collector, who wishes to remain anonymous.
Some years ago, Man at Arms did an article on four Churchill pistols, allowed by the then Lord Churchill. It was very interesting. A British friend sent me a news article last year showing Lord Churchill holding a flintlock pistol that had belonged to John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough, the victor of the Battle of Blenheim. A pair of these antique pistols still remain in family hands, being too old to be covered under the grim 1997 gun control act. Judging from the photos these pistols have been well cared for.
BTW, the future Sir Winston Churchill, KG, etc., was born in Blenheim Palace, a gift of the nation to John Churchill after Blenheim. If you haven't seen this place, look up photos. You'll be impressed! One thing that you may ask is, who cuts the grass here?! The HVAC bills must be enormous, and the place must take a number of servants to run.
British officers could buy their swords and pistols, and rifles if desired, through any commercial shops, or from the Army & Navy Cooperative Society. These would usually be commercial guns, with a much nicer finish than the official MK models of Webley and with honed actions for added smoothness. Or, they could purchase revolvers Out of Stores, meaning from govt. supplies. Those would then be marked with opposing Broad Arrows, meaning Sold Out of Stores.
The Wilkinson Sword Company had Webley make up special models of revolvers to their specs, for sale to officers who came to the firm for their swords. These, and WG models, were the nicest Webleys.
I think that after 1920, when the first of the increasingly nasty British gun laws appeared, officers were issued revolvers and those had to be carried on duty, not personal guns. However, I believe their swords are still privately purchased. The best seem to be made by Pooley Sword, formed by former Wilkinson employees after Wilkinson folded a few years ago.
BTW, my own first handgun, at age 13, was a Webley MK VI, bought for me by my mother. I later owned one made by Enfield in 1926. Quality of the arsenal-made one was identical to Webley quality. You had to read the markings to see who made which.
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OP
OP
GunnyUSMC
Member
Chuck SWEA is where I bought my box of ammo from. I was going to order two boxes, but all they had in stock at the time was one. they must have just gotten in some more.
I have three other British revolvers in my collection. Two are Enfield No2 ** in 38/200 and the other is a S&W Victory Mod. (British Proof Marks) , but was reworked after WWII by Parker Hale. It has a Parker Hale front sight and was refinished with a deep blue finish. The odd thing about the S&W is that all the numbers are matching, the barrel is marked 38 S&W CTG, but it is chambered in 38 Spl. The bore is the correct diameter for 38 Spl.
grouselips1
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Gunny,
You indicated that were not going to reload for it but there is a great article in the December 2016 issue of Handloader, that details the history and ballistics, as well as dimensions and load data for those so inclined. Neat gun!
You indicated that were not going to reload for it but there is a great article in the December 2016 issue of Handloader, that details the history and ballistics, as well as dimensions and load data for those so inclined. Neat gun!
steve8261948
Member
I bid on one of these recently at a local auction but, didn't go very high what with the problems procuring brass?
Steve
Steve
cxm
Member
S&W made their Military & Police revolver for the Empire forces in WWII. The British Purchasing Commission finally wound up buying the M&P ( "K" ) frame as opposed to the large frame ( "N" ) frame because of ease of production and lower price as well as the fact it could be easily chambered for the (then) current standard Army cartridge the 38/200 (which is a 38 S&W cartridge with a 176 gr. bullet (earlier ammo production used a nominally 200gr bullet.) The small frame Webley and the Enfield revolvers used this cartridge. The S&W product with it's 5" barrel was generally preferred by the British who used them. As an aside Australia, South Africa and New Zealand used the S&W M&P in considerable quantity.
The 38/200 (38 S&W) used a bullet of .361 (nominal) bore as opposed to the .356-57 used in the 38 S&W Special.
After WWII Parker-Hale refurbished quite a few 38-200 cal. British surplus M&P revolvers for the U.S. market. They shortened the barrels on some to 2" and sold them as carry guns (this however cut the front locking lug off along the the front of the barrel and the front sight. Parker-Hale added front sights but the locking lug was gone. Many consider the conversion with the 2" barrel unsafe.
This conversion also allowed the use of 38 S&W Special ammo in these guns... though it too is not a particularly safe thing to do... and the cases often split upon firing... this is really not a satisfactory conversion at all... Surprisingly you don't hear much about accidents with these guns, possibly because they are fairly rare now.
In addition quite a number of the British guns were imported into the U.S. still in the 38/200 chambering. These guns shoot 38S&W ammo just fine... they are strong well built guns that can be quite accurate with good ammunition... that of course being the rub... the ammo is scarce and expensive... Remington still makes 38 S&W ammo from time to time and it works. Winchester also catalogs the ammo... Likewise PPU and Fiocchi list the 38 S&W.
Hope that will be of interest...
V/r
Chuck
The 38/200 (38 S&W) used a bullet of .361 (nominal) bore as opposed to the .356-57 used in the 38 S&W Special.
After WWII Parker-Hale refurbished quite a few 38-200 cal. British surplus M&P revolvers for the U.S. market. They shortened the barrels on some to 2" and sold them as carry guns (this however cut the front locking lug off along the the front of the barrel and the front sight. Parker-Hale added front sights but the locking lug was gone. Many consider the conversion with the 2" barrel unsafe.
This conversion also allowed the use of 38 S&W Special ammo in these guns... though it too is not a particularly safe thing to do... and the cases often split upon firing... this is really not a satisfactory conversion at all... Surprisingly you don't hear much about accidents with these guns, possibly because they are fairly rare now.
In addition quite a number of the British guns were imported into the U.S. still in the 38/200 chambering. These guns shoot 38S&W ammo just fine... they are strong well built guns that can be quite accurate with good ammunition... that of course being the rub... the ammo is scarce and expensive... Remington still makes 38 S&W ammo from time to time and it works. Winchester also catalogs the ammo... Likewise PPU and Fiocchi list the 38 S&W.
Hope that will be of interest...
V/r
Chuck
Panzerschwein
member
Some say the .455 was this awesome man stopper, and the .38/200 was not good. Rubbish mate. Rubbish. The .38/200 was JUST FINE with the original 200 grain lead bullet. Had quite a thump on to it. With good shot placement, it was the equal to the .455 in effectiveness.
Vern Humphrey
Member
So how come no one uses the .38/200 today?
Panzerschwein
member
What are you talking about? Who uses .455 today? Any Webleys still in worldwide service are mainly the newer Mk IV's in .38/200.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Both the .455 and the .38/200 are long supplanted by superior cartridges, and in the case of the .38/200, supplanted before its creation/
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