Well I'm just tickled....870 Wingmaster Makeover

[DustyGmt]

I recently went on a hunt for an older 870 Wingmaster, was preferably looking for an old riot gun type with a cyl bore but came across an old "TB" from another member here and since I wanted to cut my teeth on trap shooting I decided to pull the trigger on it.

I figured I'd run down a barrel somewhere in pretty short order but for whatever the reasons, 870 barrels with cyl bore are like hens teeth these days, out of stock or somebody on ebay is trying to get $300 for it. Its especially hard to find one that is blued and 2 3/4 chamber as well.

I had all but given up on finding a barrel when I happened to call a shop over in NH that I used to go to as a kid (alstead gun shop, legendary shop imo) and he had an old 18 1/2" "Remington Brushmaster, blued, 2 3/4 chamber barrel in excellent condition. He quoted me a price of $99 OTD. . It's got adjustable rifle sights on it too, that the owner said a German company made for the "Brushmaster" barrels that are really high quality made by Brenneke if I heard him correctly.

Some of you may consider this heresy, to take a beautiful 870 "TB" and relegate it to combat shotgun status when so many others can fit the bill but I wanted a riot gun "Wingmaster" that could double up as a hunting shotgun and a Trap gun, and for not that much money I got both.

I'm going to try to find a wood stock for it possibly when it's sitting bedside for HD, but in all of about 5 minutes I can have the nice checkered MC walnut stock and 30" full choke barrel back on and ready to go for weekends I decide to shoot trap. I feel I got the best of both worlds on this deal here. I also might get a +2 extension for it as well.

What do you guys think? Good deal. I love the 870's for the same reason I like AR's, they are so easily and quickly convertible/modular to suit your needs for a given task

Combat/Hunting configuration:


Trap Configuration:

 

[DustyGmt]

They had a beautiful Wingmaster "TB" identical to mine except it was a 20GA with 26" bbl. They wanted $799 for it but it was in beautiful shape. I was tempted to buy it, just to have one in 20ga but I don't know that I would ever really use it much. I was thinking maybe for my daughter but I think I want her to be into it more than she is "actually" into it. In any case my money will be better spent on an 1100 or O/U...

 

[entropy]

I'm glad I don't need to do that with mine. I have an Ithaca 37 for an HD shotgun. I traded my 870 Tactical Magnum towards my 1100 Competition because I had HD covered with the 37.

 

[DustyGmt]

I'm glad I don't need to do that with mine. I have an Ithaca 37 for an HD shotgun. I traded my 870 Tactical Magnum towards my 1100 Competition because I had HD covered with the 37.

They had an Ithaca 37 on the rack, beautifully fully intact bluing, excellent wood for $799 and a Win M12 in pretty mint shape for same price, $799. I didn't even touch them even though I could have and really wanted too. It's a slippery slope and I know myself too well. I just looked them up and down, admired them, checked tags and moved on.

 

[DustyGmt]

I actually have a pardner pump that would suit the task of HD just fine, I'm still honeymooning this wingmaster at the moment but next year it could be the pardner, year after that 10.5 AR. Who knows. I flip on these things from time to time. One thing is for sure though, I used to feel just fine with a G17 by my bed, I have come to believe that a 12ga or compact rifle of some sort is a must. I have come to realize a little more about terminal ballistics and how many 9mm's somebody can soak up and still make trouble. A 12ga or .223, not so much.

 

[DustyGmt]

I'm replacing an extractor in a carpenter friend of mines 870 "special purpose". It's got real nice rugged parkerizing and nice walnut stock. He didn't think much of it and it's possible I could have bought it from him for a song since he referred to it as a beater gun and the fact it wasn't shucking spent shells so well but I told him he might want to check sale prices on those before he decides to sell and his eyes bugged out of his head when he found out they were going for $1000++. If he wasn't a friend I might have made him an offer closer to what he claimed to have paid, but I think he has a new appreciation for his "beater".

 

[Rubone]

I like having different configurations, ....but I hate swapping parts. So.......

 

[DustyGmt]

I took it back to its former glory. The synthetic would have been fine with me if I didn't have the original TB stock, and I can actually still bring the sights up very quickly even with the Monte Carlo stock. I wasn't sure about it at first but the rifle sights on the slug barrel are high enough to use the MC.

I was considering shooting a round of trap with the synthetic stock and 30" trap barrel because the bead sits right on top of the rib the way I imagine it is supposed to be and with the MC when I sight the bead the rib looks kind of like a runway or ramp, and I'm not sure it's supposed to look like that. I bust quite a few clays though so idk. I'm going to try it with a non raised stock and see if it makes a difference. If it does I'll stick with a non MC stock...

 

[entropy]

I was considering shooting a round of trap with the synthetic stock and 30" trap barrel because the bead sits right on top of the rib the way I imagine it is supposed to be and with the MC when I sight the bead the rib looks kind of like a runway or ramp, and I'm not sure it's supposed to look like that.

Expressed as a ratio, 50/50 is what you are seeing when you shoot it with the synthetic stock. 50% of the shot goes above the bead, 50% below. For Trap more shot above the bead is better, because if you are doing it right, you are shooting at the bird when it's rising. (Unless shooting games like Annie Oakleys.)
Everyone has their own preference for POI, and there's nothing wrong with shooting 50/50, but you'll eventually notice that you have to cover the bird to hit it in straightaways and slight angles. I found a 70/30 POI works better for me. 70% of the shot above the bead, 30% under. The Monte Carlo stock on your 870 raises the rear sight of the shotgun (your eye) up. You raise the rear sight to raise POI, lower it to lower POI.

I find it easier to shoot with a POI the allows me to not have to cover the bird to shoot it. If there is one immutable law to Trap, it is you must have your complete attention and focus on the bird. If you don't, you are far more likely to miss. It's not that Trap birds are so hard to hit, it's that they are so easy to miss.

 

[DustyGmt]

Expressed as a ratio, 50/50 is what you are seeing when you shoot it with the synthetic stock. 50% of the shot goes above the bead, 50% below. For Trap more shot above the bead is better, because if you are doing it right, you are shooting at the bird when it's rising. (Unless shooting games like Annie Oakleys.)
Everyone has their own preference for POI, and there's nothing wrong with shooting 50/50, but you'll eventually notice that you have to cover the bird to hit it in straightaways and slight angles. I found a 70/30 POI works better for me. 70% of the shot above the bead, 30% under. The Monte Carlo stock on your 870 raises the rear sight of the shotgun (your eye) up. You raise the rear sight to raise POI, lower it to lower POI.

I find it easier to shoot with a POI the allows me to not have to cover the bird to shoot it. If there is one immutable law to Trap, it is you must have your complete attention and focus on the bird. If you don't, you are far more likely to miss. It's not that Trap birds are so hard to hit, it's that they are so easy to miss.

Very good. With the rifle sights on the slug barrel I have to rest my cheek a lil further up toward the reciever to get a good sight picture, but not much.

So with a non raised standard stock, the sight picture is 50/50 with a vent rib, what is the ratio with a Monte Carlo stock? 70/30?

 

[greyling22]

I had an 1100 trap. stunning wood. I bought it just because of the wood. But I couldn't hit anything with it because of the high comb. later sold it, but I hated to let it go. It was that pretty.

 

[entropy]

Very good. With the rifle sights on the slug barrel I have to rest my cheek a lil further up toward the reciever to get a good sight picture, but not much.

So with a non raised standard stock, the sight picture is 50/50 with a vent rib, what is the ratio with a Monte Carlo stock? 70/30?

Depends on your cheek weld, but for most people it's about 60/40.

One way to experiment with POI, is get one of these:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018129779

Read this:

https://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf

Take it and a box or two of shells to the patterning board. Stand 13 yards away from the patterning board. Follow Neil's instructions.

Neil took shotgun ballistics out of the Dark Ages and compiled more info on it than had been written until then. I had the privilege of meeting him, while he was doing some pattern board work. I had just finished a round of Trap, and walking off I noticed a guy at the patterning board, so I walked over and introduced myself. He explained what he was doing, and I was so fascinated by his work, and Neil himself, that two hours flew by before I knew it. I had somewhere to be, so I bade him farewell. I wasn't shooting regularly or competitively at the time, or I might have gotten to know him better. He died in 2019, just as I was getting back into Trap. I did get to converse with him on a shotgun forum not long before he passed.

I have a neat little trick I use with flat rib guns, like the 870 or 1100. I use it for Annie Oakleys and pheasant hunting, where sometimes the birds are descending. From my usual mount, I roll my cheek forward as the target starts to drop, this flattens out the POI, and makes a hit more likely. The down side of doing this is it pounds your cheek more. I can't do this with my Ljutic, because I have it set so I am looking down the rib like you do with the field stock on your 870. Because of the very high rib, if I tried it, I'd be staring at the back ramp of the rib, and lose the bird.

 

[DustyGmt]

Depends on your cheek weld, but for most people it's about 60/40.

One way to experiment with POI, is get one of these:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018129779

Read this:

https://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf

Take it and a box or two of shells to the patterning board. Stand 13 yards away from the patterning board. Follow Neil's instructions.

Neil took shotgun ballistics out of the Dark Ages and compiled more info on it than had been written until then. I had the privilege of meeting him, while he was doing some pattern board work. I had just finished a round of Trap, and walking off I noticed a guy at the patterning board, so I walked over and introduced myself. He explained what he was doing, and I was so fascinated by his work, and Neil himself, that two hours flew by before I knew it. I had somewhere to be, so I bade him farewell. I wasn't shooting regularly or competitively at the time, or I might have gotten to know him better. He died in 2019, just as I was getting back into Trap. I did get to converse with him on a shotgun forum not long before he passed.

I have a neat little trick I use with flat rib guns, like the 870 or 1100. I use it for Annie Oakleys and pheasant hunting, where sometimes the birds are descending. From my usual mount, I roll my cheek forward as the target starts to drop, this flattens out the POI, and makes a hit more likely. The down side of doing this is it pounds your cheek more. I can't do this with my Ljutic, because I have it set so I am looking down the rib like you do with the field stock on your 870. Because of the very high rib, if I tried it, I'd be staring at the back ramp of the rib, and lose the bird.

Thanks for the links, really great info. I like having stuff like this to read. I've got a newfound respect and desire for shotguns and clays. I never even really gave it any thought until fairly recently. It's a whole new thing for me and I just want to be good at it.

 

[Riomouse911]

I had an 1100 trap. stunning wood. I bought it just because of the wood. But I couldn't hit anything with it because of the high comb. later sold it, but I hated to let it go. It was that pretty.

My 1100 Trap has amazing wood, too. Those guys sure knew how to pick stock blanks back then!

OP, I did a similar HD treatment on an older Wingmaster as well; 20” rifle-sight barrel, +2 extension , 6-round sidesaddle and a synthetic stock/fore end. I couldn’t ask for anything more in a HD shotgun.

Stay safe.

 

[DustyGmt]

My 1100 Trap has amazing wood, too. Those guys sure knew how to pick stock blanks back then!

OP, I did a similar HD treatment on an older Wingmaster as well; 20” rifle-sight barrel, +2 extension , 6-round sidesaddle and a synthetic stock/fore end. I couldn’t ask for anything more in a HD shotgun.

Stay safe.

Does the +2 come out flush with a 20" barrel. I'm considering an extension, +2 or 3. Definitely don't want anything to stick out further than the bbl... Yeah the 20" IC bbl makes it feel like an entirely different gun, It's almost too nice to think of as a combat shotgun, like if Cadillac made a version of a humvee.

 

[entropy]

Yes, the +2 ends right about at the muzzle of a 20". The +1 does so for an 18 1/2" It doesn't hurt if the extension goes past the muzzle; it becomes a "stand-off" device. (They usually are used for breaching, but might be helpful at contact disatance otherwise.)

It's almost too nice to think of as a combat shotgun, like if Cadillac made a version of a humvee.

That would be the Benelli M1014.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Love that Winger. Congrats.

 

[DustyGmt]

Love that Winger. Congrats.

I like almost everything about the mossberg 500 series better, slide release location, tang safety, retracted shell carrier and I think the ejection port is a lil bigger too to aid in throwing a shell in quickly, everything about the mossberg except the feel and the feel of the action.

Something about the remington 870, especially the older ones just feel tighter and higher quality. I know the mossberg is every bit as reliable, I just love the way the 870 feels. Especially this WM.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I like almost everything about the mossberg 500 series better, slide release location, tang safety, retracted shell carrier and I think the ejection port is a lil bigger too to aid in throwing a shell in quickly, everything about the mossberg except the feel and the feel of the action.

Something about the remington 870, especially the older ones just feel tighter and higher quality. I know the mossberg is every bit as reliable, I just love the way the 870 feels. Especially this WM.

I totally agree. I too really prefer how the Mossberg keeps the lifter up with the bolt closed, the 870 fights you every time you try and place in a new shell. But the Mossberg just is nowhere near as smooth as the 870. You can feel every part sort of chunk along and it’s just not slick. An 870, especially one that’s been broken in, feels great and the entire gun feels like it was perhaps better designed as far as the action goes.

 

[Wildbillz]

I have a Chote extension and it ends about a 1/2 or so from the muzzle. Its a +2 type.

WB

 

[DustyGmt]

he had an old 18 1/2" "Remington Brushmaster, blued, 2 3/4 chamber barrel in excellent condition

Combat/Hunting configuration:
View attachment 1003076

Trap Configuration:
View attachment 1003077

Correction: it's actually a 20" IC "Brushmaster" barrel, not 18.5".