Went looking for a 30-06, came away with 8x57 Mauser
- Thread starter Brasso
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sumpnz
Member
Most American factory loads are emasculated in defference to idiots who don't know the difference between rifles designed for 8x57J and 8x57JS rounds (8x57J was limited to a much lower pressure). The older 8x57J used a .318" 220 gr round nose bullet at a MV of around 2200 fps. The 8x57JS uses a .323" 154 gr spitzer bullet (military load from WWII) at almost 2900 fps. Current Winchester, Federal and Remington factory loads all drive 170 gr spitzers at 2350 fps. Assuming your rifle was simply a 30-06 design altered to to take the bigger bullet and slightly different cartridge shape, there's no reason you can't equal or exceed the old WWII military ballistics with hand loads.
There's lots of surplus ammo out there, but with a new (i.e. not surplus) rifle, I would be very careful to stay away from corrosively primed ammo (pretty much all Turkish, and most Yugo). If it's mil-surp ammo, don't take the sellers word for it being non-corrosive. I've seen some ads on gunbroker.com for 8mm Mauser that the seller said was non-corrosive, but almost certainly was corrosive.
Some people here on THR think the corrosive is fine to shoot, and I certainly won't stop them, but my personal experience with the Turkish ammo is that it's so dirty, that corrosive or not, it's such a pain to clean that I've quite shooting my 8mm until I can get some clean, non-corrosive ammo. I've still got 300-400 rounds of the corrosive stuff that is currently being used as counterweight on my TV to keep it ballanced in a bookcase until I get the entertainment center built (the shelf it currently on needs to be about 1/2" deeper).
For factory loads, look to European manufactuerers for hotter loads. I know S&B loads 198gr bullets in 8x57JS (they also load for 8x57J which incidentally is a rimmed case so make sure you get the right one), but I have no idea how hot those loads are. I'm sure Norma loads for 8x57JS, be prepared to pay out the a$$ if you go with them. I think there's a fairly new load here (Hot Shot) that's made in Bosnia, but again I don't know how hot they are (they are very cheap though - around $8/20 for FMJ).
Your best bet for hot loads (relative to American factory loads at least) is to roll your own. When I don't have quite so much else going on I intend to start handloading myself, but in the meantime I know a guy (FFL) that does custom loads and I'm probably going to get him to work up a load for me. I think for the first order he's going to charge me about $74/100, and thereafter (if I bring the brass back) it'll drop to around $52/100. Still kind of 'spensive, but also a bunch cheaper than equivalent factory loads.
Good Luck.
Edit: to answer your question about online places to buy ammo, try these:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/
http://gunbroker.com/auction/Browse.asp?Cat=3017 (do a search on 8mm or 8x57)
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/auctions(1).aspx?ab=14 (do a search on 8mm or 8x57)
I'm sure there's lots of other places, but those were the first to spring to mind.
There's lots of surplus ammo out there, but with a new (i.e. not surplus) rifle, I would be very careful to stay away from corrosively primed ammo (pretty much all Turkish, and most Yugo). If it's mil-surp ammo, don't take the sellers word for it being non-corrosive. I've seen some ads on gunbroker.com for 8mm Mauser that the seller said was non-corrosive, but almost certainly was corrosive.
Some people here on THR think the corrosive is fine to shoot, and I certainly won't stop them, but my personal experience with the Turkish ammo is that it's so dirty, that corrosive or not, it's such a pain to clean that I've quite shooting my 8mm until I can get some clean, non-corrosive ammo. I've still got 300-400 rounds of the corrosive stuff that is currently being used as counterweight on my TV to keep it ballanced in a bookcase until I get the entertainment center built (the shelf it currently on needs to be about 1/2" deeper).
For factory loads, look to European manufactuerers for hotter loads. I know S&B loads 198gr bullets in 8x57JS (they also load for 8x57J which incidentally is a rimmed case so make sure you get the right one), but I have no idea how hot those loads are. I'm sure Norma loads for 8x57JS, be prepared to pay out the a$$ if you go with them. I think there's a fairly new load here (Hot Shot) that's made in Bosnia, but again I don't know how hot they are (they are very cheap though - around $8/20 for FMJ).
Your best bet for hot loads (relative to American factory loads at least) is to roll your own. When I don't have quite so much else going on I intend to start handloading myself, but in the meantime I know a guy (FFL) that does custom loads and I'm probably going to get him to work up a load for me. I think for the first order he's going to charge me about $74/100, and thereafter (if I bring the brass back) it'll drop to around $52/100. Still kind of 'spensive, but also a bunch cheaper than equivalent factory loads.
Good Luck.
Edit: to answer your question about online places to buy ammo, try these:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/
http://gunbroker.com/auction/Browse.asp?Cat=3017 (do a search on 8mm or 8x57)
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/auctions(1).aspx?ab=14 (do a search on 8mm or 8x57)
I'm sure there's lots of other places, but those were the first to spring to mind.
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8x57J is rimless as well, it's 8x57JR and 8x57JRS that are rimmed. 8x57J is the second from the right in this photo of various cartridges.
Shouldn't be an issue for you though, only for us that have pre-M1898 mauser actions
You should be able to handload yours to perform at least equally with .30-06, possibly even greater with the slightly heavier bullets available for 8mm.Attachments
sumpnz
Member
Thanks for the correction on the rimmed issue.
Cosmoline
Member
S&B and Norma are great, but if you shoot a lot handloading is the best bet. 8mm bullets are easy to get and brass is also pretty easy to find or make. I found IMR 4064 was about the best all-around for my loads. My Mausers tended to like the 180 and 200 grain bullets, with Barnes 220 solids being about the most accurate of all.
Just for info, and contrary to published statements, the bore diameter of rifles made for the 8x57j and those made for the 8x57js is the same (.311"). The difference is in the groove diameter, which was .318" in the old rifles and .323" in the new (post 1905) rifles.
The Germans found out that the lands of the old rifle were eaten away too fast from the corrosive priming and erosive powder, so they simply deepened the grooves and enlarged the bullet to match. Some writers state that the old rifles were "rebored" or "rerifled" with an "S" marked on the chamber to indicate this. In fact, they were only rechambered to enlarge the chamber neck and give the neck of the new round room to expand. In WWI, the German army issued the new ammunition to soldiers armed with the modified Model 1888 Commission Rifle (which was not a Mauser).
Jim
The Germans found out that the lands of the old rifle were eaten away too fast from the corrosive priming and erosive powder, so they simply deepened the grooves and enlarged the bullet to match. Some writers state that the old rifles were "rebored" or "rerifled" with an "S" marked on the chamber to indicate this. In fact, they were only rechambered to enlarge the chamber neck and give the neck of the new round room to expand. In WWI, the German army issued the new ammunition to soldiers armed with the modified Model 1888 Commission Rifle (which was not a Mauser).
Jim
Centerfire Systems has some, but I'm sure they're not the only ones.
sumpnz
Member
J&G in Prescott, AZ has S&B 8mm sometimes. Usually it's 196 grain soft points. You can mail order from them.
http://catalog.jgsales.com/
They also have a bunch of corrosive Yugo and Turk ammo, if you're up for that much cleaning.
I've seen Ingman, Hot Shot, S&B, and once in a while Norma 8mm ammo at the online auctions (gunbroker, auctionarms, etc). You can also try ammoman.com, and maybe a few others. I've also seen lots of Winchester, Federal, and Remington 8mm, but like I said before, those are emasculated loads. Better from a recoil standpoint, but they sacrifice a lot of the potential of the round.
BTW, I think I only mentioned bullet diameter differences. I didn't say anything about different bore or groove diameters between the older J and newer JS loads.
Cosmoline - what do you use to make 8mm brass. .30-06 brass? How hard is it to reform brass from another caliber to 8mm (I know it depends on what the other caliber was, but I'm speaking in general here).
http://catalog.jgsales.com/
They also have a bunch of corrosive Yugo and Turk ammo, if you're up for that much cleaning.
I've seen Ingman, Hot Shot, S&B, and once in a while Norma 8mm ammo at the online auctions (gunbroker, auctionarms, etc). You can also try ammoman.com, and maybe a few others. I've also seen lots of Winchester, Federal, and Remington 8mm, but like I said before, those are emasculated loads. Better from a recoil standpoint, but they sacrifice a lot of the potential of the round.
BTW, I think I only mentioned bullet diameter differences. I didn't say anything about different bore or groove diameters between the older J and newer JS loads.
Cosmoline - what do you use to make 8mm brass. .30-06 brass? How hard is it to reform brass from another caliber to 8mm (I know it depends on what the other caliber was, but I'm speaking in general here).
Cosmoline
Member
8x57 is the precursor to 7x57 which is the father of the .30'06. So they all share the same head diameter, .473". A .30'06 can be made into either 8x57 or 7x57. I found, however, that it's easy to get bulk Norma or Rem. brass. Midway USA always has various assortments in stock. Avoid the Winchester brass as I've found it has uneven primer pockets.
It's a very efficient cartridge and a lot of fun to reload and shoot. It's not as long as the .30'06, but seems to do just fine in spite of this. It also tends to handle heavier 200 and 220 grain bullets better than a .30'06, at least in my experience.
sumpnz
Member
I really wish I had the time, and space right now to get into reloading, but between my woodworking hobby, soon to be daughter, and a bunch of other things, it's just not in the cards right now.
However, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I have found a guy that will custom load for me. It's still quite a buit more than if I did it myself, but still less expensive than equivalent factory loads. He's going to load for both my 6.5x55 and my 8x57 rifles, plus I bought a bunch (400 rounds) of .40S&W practice rounds from him a while back.
He's pushing close to the price I can get for factory pistol rounds ($16/100) bu this price includes tax, and obviously there's no shipping involved. So I figure it's still worth it as long as I buy enough that I don't need to go back a quite a while. He does the loading on the side, so sometimes the lead time can get kinda long. I know a guy here at work that, if I got the dies, brass and bullets, he'd probably be willing to load them up for me for little more than the cost of the powder and primers (I imagine that if I covered the powder/primers, helped out, and provided some of my homebrew, that would probably settle the bill).
However, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I have found a guy that will custom load for me. It's still quite a buit more than if I did it myself, but still less expensive than equivalent factory loads. He's going to load for both my 6.5x55 and my 8x57 rifles, plus I bought a bunch (400 rounds) of .40S&W practice rounds from him a while back.
He's pushing close to the price I can get for factory pistol rounds ($16/100) bu this price includes tax, and obviously there's no shipping involved. So I figure it's still worth it as long as I buy enough that I don't need to go back a quite a while. He does the loading on the side, so sometimes the lead time can get kinda long. I know a guy here at work that, if I got the dies, brass and bullets, he'd probably be willing to load them up for me for little more than the cost of the powder and primers (I imagine that if I covered the powder/primers, helped out, and provided some of my homebrew, that would probably settle the bill).
Which type of brass do you prefer between the norma and the rem? I've never really like the rem brass too much. It seems to be very rough and the surface is full of pockets. It's just not smooth like win or fed brass. Even the store bought stuff usually turns out to have brown spots and tarnishes in it that can't be polished out.
Zak Smith
Member
Loading 8x57JS is super easy. It was the first I loaded, on a single stage press. There are some good 150gr bullets, and some heavier. Nosler has a Ballistic Tip designed for 8mm Mag which can be used.
The ballistics generally slightly exceed the same load in .30-06 because of the large diamter of the bullets. You should be able to get a 150gr bullet to over 3000fps pretty easily in a M48A or similar gun. I don't think that's even "pushing it."
-z
The ballistics generally slightly exceed the same load in .30-06 because of the large diamter of the bullets. You should be able to get a 150gr bullet to over 3000fps pretty easily in a M48A or similar gun. I don't think that's even "pushing it."
-z
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I've some 8mm ammo that launches a 196 grain bullet at 2650. that's pretty smokin, and its mil surp.
If you shoot S&B 8mm Mauser ammo...
It's a good load, running at European pressure levels, and it's also reloadable. I prefer S&B brass to Remington or Winchester, it's more consistent, and closer to mil-spec, thicker and more durable.
Remington sells a .323" 185gr Pointed Soft Point bullet that works quite nicely for hunting, as does Speer with their 170gr Spitzer Soft Point. If you want a heavier bullet, there are the 200gr Nosler Partitions, and the 220gr Sierra GameKings.
I've even made some 8mm Mauser match loads, using the 198gr Sierra MatchKing, now offered here in the U.S. after several years of Europe-only sales. (I used to buy them as factory seconds at Sierra's plant) They worked great in my old FN-49 rifle when we shot non-sanctioned High Power matches on Thursday nights in Lincoln, PRK. I still have some of that ammo, but when I left the state, I sold the FN-49 to a Kalifornian who wanted an autoloading military rifle before SB-23 went into effect out there.
8mm Mauser was the first-ever centerfire ammunition I reloaded. My dad taught me using those Lee Loaders, using the scoop powder measures.
If you're hurting for 8mm Mauser brass, you can use .30-06, but it's gonna be a mighty shove on the reloading press handle, you're moving the shoulder some 7mm or so further down the case, and necking it up from .308" to .323". Then you have to trim the case back down to 57mm. Use a sparing amount of Imperial Sizing Die Wax for the smoothest and easiest job of reforming.
You've got a rifle and caliber combination that will do everything the .30-06 does, plus works well with heavier bullets. Congrats!
It's a good load, running at European pressure levels, and it's also reloadable. I prefer S&B brass to Remington or Winchester, it's more consistent, and closer to mil-spec, thicker and more durable.
Remington sells a .323" 185gr Pointed Soft Point bullet that works quite nicely for hunting, as does Speer with their 170gr Spitzer Soft Point. If you want a heavier bullet, there are the 200gr Nosler Partitions, and the 220gr Sierra GameKings.
I've even made some 8mm Mauser match loads, using the 198gr Sierra MatchKing, now offered here in the U.S. after several years of Europe-only sales. (I used to buy them as factory seconds at Sierra's plant) They worked great in my old FN-49 rifle when we shot non-sanctioned High Power matches on Thursday nights in Lincoln, PRK. I still have some of that ammo, but when I left the state, I sold the FN-49 to a Kalifornian who wanted an autoloading military rifle before SB-23 went into effect out there.
8mm Mauser was the first-ever centerfire ammunition I reloaded. My dad taught me using those Lee Loaders, using the scoop powder measures.
If you're hurting for 8mm Mauser brass, you can use .30-06, but it's gonna be a mighty shove on the reloading press handle, you're moving the shoulder some 7mm or so further down the case, and necking it up from .308" to .323". Then you have to trim the case back down to 57mm. Use a sparing amount of Imperial Sizing Die Wax for the smoothest and easiest job of reforming.
You've got a rifle and caliber combination that will do everything the .30-06 does, plus works well with heavier bullets. Congrats!
Military vs US factory ammo
Hello, I just joined this board after seeing this thread. I've got a dumb question I hope you'll be kind enough to answer. My brother-in law gave me a Turkish mauser a while ago and I've been wondering what to do with it. Now maybe I'll try loading something for it. My question is on the overall cartridge length. The turk ammo I found fills the length of the cartridge well. I picked up an old box of Winchester round nose and it is much shorter. Is this a problem? Do you have to use spitzers or heavy bullets in a turk? Thanks from a newbie,
Vern
Hello, I just joined this board after seeing this thread. I've got a dumb question I hope you'll be kind enough to answer. My brother-in law gave me a Turkish mauser a while ago and I've been wondering what to do with it. Now maybe I'll try loading something for it. My question is on the overall cartridge length. The turk ammo I found fills the length of the cartridge well. I picked up an old box of Winchester round nose and it is much shorter. Is this a problem? Do you have to use spitzers or heavy bullets in a turk? Thanks from a newbie,
Vern
Zak Smith
Member
As long as it feeds and it's proper 8x57JS ammunition for an 8x57JS rifle, it should be fine.
-z
-z
Clemson
Member
Congratulations, Brasso! You have bought an excellent rifle. For deer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Winchester, Federal, and Remington loads in 8mm. They won't have punishing recoil either. As others have said, buy some Norma or load your own if you want to see the full potential of the cartridge.
All my 8mm's (six at the moment) are original Mausers, but I have a future project in mind that will use the military barrel on one of the better (but non-collectable) ones to make a Mannlicher for treestand use on whitetails.
Clemson
All my 8mm's (six at the moment) are original Mausers, but I have a future project in mind that will use the military barrel on one of the better (but non-collectable) ones to make a Mannlicher for treestand use on whitetails.
Clemson
8x57JS vs. 8x57JRS
Hello 8mm folks,
I was wondering what the difference is between an 8x57JS and an 8x57JRS. I almost assume the 8x57JRS is "rimmed" an the other is not. I noticed that Norma sells ammo in the 8x57JS, but shows balistics for both calibers.
Lonney
Hello 8mm folks,
I was wondering what the difference is between an 8x57JS and an 8x57JRS. I almost assume the 8x57JRS is "rimmed" an the other is not. I noticed that Norma sells ammo in the 8x57JS, but shows balistics for both calibers.
Lonney
Hud
Member
Kestrel et al,
Check out Remington's 798 at:
www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_798.asp
They don't curently chamber it in 8mm Mauser, but it probably wont be long before they do.
Then check out Zastava Arms at:
www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm
They make the 798 for Remington. They are also Mitchell's supplier for M48's.
Regards, Hud
Check out Remington's 798 at:
www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_798.asp
They don't curently chamber it in 8mm Mauser, but it probably wont be long before they do.
Then check out Zastava Arms at:
www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm
They make the 798 for Remington. They are also Mitchell's supplier for M48's.
Regards, Hud
browningguy
Member
I'll second the S&B loads, I use their 173 gr. SPCE load in my 7x57 and it is an excellent bullet. I wish they would sell just components. I'm not sure on pricing for the 8mm but last year I bought 10 boxes of the 7mm for around $10.50 per box, hard to beat the S&B pricing.
sumpnz
Member
Hud - Those were the Charles Daly rifles until recently. Since they never chambered in 8mm as Daly's I'd be surprised if they did so under the Remington lable, but one never knows.
pinetree64
Member
Midway or Graf and Sons will have the dies and components your need for reloading. I have a couple milsurps in 8x57 and really like the round and have thought about conveerting my 30-06AI into an 8x57. I mostly shoot surplus and wouldn't do so in a new gun unless I had too. I bought a box of Georgia Arms 180g Nosler Ballistic Tips @2900fps for $22 to test my Yugo out and I really liked it.
http://www.georgia-arms.com/precision.htm
They do sell other 8mm in the rifle section, but it is the weak stuff.
tjg
http://www.georgia-arms.com/precision.htm
They do sell other 8mm in the rifle section, but it is the weak stuff.
tjg
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