Were there ever any 38 Super Sub-Machine Guns?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MikePGS

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
2,348
Location
Metro Detroit, Michigan
I don't know why i thought of this, (probably has something to do with the fact that i'm re-reading Stephen Hunter's "Havana") but i was wondering if there was ever a Thompson chambered in 38 super, or for that matter any other submachinegun type weapon in this cartridge. I have a feeling it would be a blast to shoot, especially if someone else was paying for the ammo :D So does anyone know if this actually has ever been done, or do i just have Earl Swagger on the brain atm?
 
I don't believe the Thompson was ever chambered for .38 super. At one point a round called the .45 Thompson was developed for it, which was a longer .45 caliber round.
During WW2 at one point, there were plans to make a stainless steel Thompson similar to the M1A1 version, with an actuator knob on both sides of the receiver, and in .30 Carbine. Due to the introduction of the M3 Greasegun, this was never actually made.
Also, IIRC a 9mm. Thompson was made with a curved banana type magazine. I don't think it was ever put into mass production though. WW2 marked really the end of the Thompson as a mass production item and with the NFA of '34 around demand had dried up and blown away as far as commercial production was concerned.
 
An outlaw gunsmith in Texas made Colt auto pistols into machine pistols for Baby Face Nelson, who distributed them to other criminal associates including John Dillinger. He did them in both .45 ACP and .38 Super. Nelson is said to have used one, in .45, in at least two of the incidents in which he shot cops, including the Little Bohemia shootout.
 
"Thompson: The American Legend" shows at least one TSMG chambered for 38 Super, and "The World's Submachine Guns" shows several of the "Thompson Auto Rifles" (a straight-stocked version they tried to sell in England) chambered for cartridges like 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 7.63 Mauser, and 9mm Luger. 38 Super is a real red-headed stepchild as a cartridge; in Europe, it's "niche" was already taken up by things like 9mm Largo, 9mm Mauser, etc., and in the US, who would go for a 38 Super if they could get something chambered in the more plentiful 45 Auto? Mendoza, in Mexico, produced a few of their SMGs in 38 Super, and Star in Spain made a few for export sales, but it's an oddity.
 
Gordon Ingram designed several other subguns before the famous MAC 10/11.

Some of the earlier ones, like the M6, were supposed to have been made in .38 Super. Most of the ones still around are in .45ACP, however. Ingram was aiming at the police and overseas military markets so it's not hard to understand why the .45 ACP was usually a better bet as a caliber.
 
SDC said:
"Thompson: The American Legend" shows at least one TSMG chambered for 38 Super, and "The World's Submachine Guns" shows several of the "Thompson Auto Rifles" (a straight-stocked version they tried to sell in England) chambered for cartridges like 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 7.63 Mauser, and 9mm Luger. 38 Super is a real red-headed stepchild as a cartridge; in Europe, it's "niche" was already taken up by things like 9mm Largo, 9mm Mauser, etc., and in the US, who would go for a 38 Super if they could get something chambered in the more plentiful 45 Auto? Mendoza, in Mexico, produced a few of their SMGs in 38 Super, and Star in Spain made a few for export sales, but it's an oddity.
Click to expand...
.

:eek:

I see my error was relying on military Thompsons too much ....
It seems there were a few in .38super.
 
I always thought the thompson would have been better in .30 carbine, or .38 super...
Click to expand...

They made an experimental .30 Carbine caliber Thompson during WW2. It used a regular receiver with an added spring tube sticking out the rear, since the heavier bolt and longer travel needed took up most of the receivers length.

Might have worked better if they'd used the Pederson hesitation lock.

They used to sell conversions that used M1 Carbine barreled receivers in a dummy Thompson shell.

PS
The .38 Superauto had a reputation for penetrating the most common bullet proof vests of the day.
.45 auto rounds would bounce off a German Stalhelm and the Japanese body armor worn by their air commandos would stop a .45. These used a much better Manganese alloy than US and allied helmets. I've heard that even the Jute fiber frag vest worn by Japanese machinegunners would stop a .45 or slow it down to non lethal velocity.

Soviet body armor was expected to stop a 9mm from a subgun at 100 yards and reduce wounding effect at closer ranges. No body armor of the WW2 period would stop the Carbine or Rifle rounds in use.

Various WW1 body armors were tried out and were more or less effective against lower velocity slugs. Most were tested against .45 slugs at various ranges, 9mm would generally walk right through them at the same distances that they defeated the .45 rounds.
 
Those pics remind me.
I'd often wondered if the designers of the STEN gun had a wooden buttstock in mind. The angle of the tube of the T shaped stock looks like it might correspond with the hole through the SMLE butt for its stock bolt.

Awhile back I ran across photos of a wooden buttstocked (scandinavian?)Resistence manufactured STEN, the butt was exactly like the SMLE butt. Probably made from old No.1 buttstocks that had oill perished at the action strap.
 
Tommygunn remarked:

Also, IIRC a 9mm. Thompson was made with a curved banana type magazine.
Click to expand...

Kinda curious as to why a curved mag would be necessary for the 9mm round.

I just measured one and it tapers only very slightly, from .385" near the head (head is the same) to .375" at the mouth. (Sample N = 1.)

I could see a slightly curved mag for the .38 Super, since it has a slight rim on it. But the small rim, as I understand it, was to facilitate feeding from magazines.

I had a Colt Airweight Commander in this cartridge and I loved it. I used to make brass for it out of .357 cases, using a tool bit I ground for the purpose. Even then (mid 1970s?) the brass was hard to come by. My self-made cases looked like hell if I made them out of nickeled cases, but they worked just fine.

I understand the .38 Super round was developed for the Mexican (and other) markets where military rounds (e.g., .45ACP) were verboten for the ordinary mortals they call civilians.

I'm still kicking myself in the fundament for selling that Airweight. Anyone who wants to join in on my next a$$-kicking session, let me know.
 
Kinda curious as to why a curved mag would be necessary for the 9mm round.
Click to expand...

It's not really "necessary" (there are plenty of 9mm SMGs that work fine with a straight mag), but it does add to feeding reliability. In a single-stack mag, that .01" difference would add up to .3" over 30 rounds, leaving the nose of the last round free to wobble up and down 1/3 of an inch if it wasn't supported by a follower. Even in the more typical double-stack mag, the "wobble" introduced by having the base supported but the nose free can cause feeding problems, so why not eliminate it as a problem before it makes itself a problem? H&K started out with straight mags in its MP-5 series, but had enough hassles with them that they redesigned them as curved mags precisely because of this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

E
  • Locked
Why has no one built a 38 super sub gun?
Replies
24
Views
3K
Millwright
M
E
  • Locked
  • Poll
Looking for another 38 super
Replies
15
Views
804
wally
wally
DeepSouth
  • Locked
Strangest machine gun ever?
Replies
9
Views
724
Robert
Robert
P
  • Locked
.38 Super double stack?
Replies
16
Views
4K
JohnBiltz
J
M
  • Locked
.38 Super to .45 conversion?
Replies
2
Views
434
MountainBear
M
Back
Top