What 22 revolver made today is comparable to the older K-22 Masterpiece?

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sjcslk

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Supposedly when talking about quality in a 22 revolver the S&W K-22 Masterpiece (or model 17) always gets mentioned. What 22 revolver made today is comparable to the older K-22 ?
An example of what I'm asking might be that down the road people may talk about the Benelli auto shotguns like they talk about the old Belgium Brownings today.
 
The modern S&W 617's and model 17's are every bit as good of shooters as the old guns, but lack many of the finer features of the older guns. Also, the fit and finish that comes with the older hand fitting and machining processes used many years ago can not be repeated with modern cnc machining and lower QC standards of today..

So the short answer is that no modern 22 revolver can match the K-22's or older 17's for quality, but I think they can match the older guns in accuracy.

Perhaps a Korth, but that seems like overshooting the mark, and I only know them by reputation, and have no idea if their quality actually commands the prices they sell for.
 
"Quality" is subjective. New S&W 617 may not have the fit, finish and blueing of the K-22s, but IME, they shoot as well or better.

If you're looking for accuracy and fit and finish, I'd look at a single action from Freedom Arms.
 
K-22's

If given a choice, would you pick a new 617 or a model 17 classic? I like the look of the model 17 classic without the underlug, but not sure which would have better balance.
 
Good posts. If anything new was as good as the old guns, we wouldn't have such affection for the old guns. I'd gladly pay current prices for a modern K-22 that was made just like the pre-war guns. Or perhaps something built the way USFA would've done it, old world fit and finish with thoroughly modern machining.

The new guns might shoot lights out but they certainly lack in every other aspect.

Been thinking about a new .22LR revolver for small game hunting, now that I might have a new place to hunt cottontails. Not looking at anything new but 60-100yr old S&W's and Colt's. I love my Old Model Single Six but even the old Rugers ain't made like the old S&W and Colt sixguns. Even my 30yr old K-22 can't compete with the pre-war guns for soul and panache.

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I too dislikethe full underlug.

I like the look of the model 17 classic without the underlug,

I couldn't agree with you more.

The 617 may be a fine revolver,,,
But the full underlug is just plain ugly.

S&W claims that the extra weight makes for faster re-acquisition of the target,,,
But my thought is that they are simply "making lemonade" about a cost cutting step.

It would cost several manufacturing steps to change the underlug,,,
Therefore they don't do it and try to market it as a "feature".

Aarond

.

The only other K-frame size DA/SA revolver that I know of is the Ruger SP-101,,,
My not-so-humble opinion is that it isn't even in the same class as a vintage Model 17.
 
Supposedly when talking about quality in a 22 revolver the S&W K-22 Masterpiece (or model 17) always gets mentioned. What 22 revolver made today is comparable to the older K-22 ?

I haven't found the .22 revolver that can compare to a K22 M17. Modern Smith and Wessons are simply crap by comparison. Nothing else from ANY manufacturer compares, either. JMHO, of course, you are asking for opinions, right? :D

I have a late 80s stainless Rossi M511 6 shot kit gun that's real accurate, but the DA trigger is crap compared to a M17, but it was cheap and it compares well with most .22 revolvers on the market now days considering it was only 200 bucks used at a gun show. My serious small game hunting .22 is a Ruger Mk 2. I think you get a lot more for your money now days by going semi auto with your .22. The Buckmark, the Ruger Marks, the Beretta Neos, I mean, they're just hard to beat with a revolver at twice the price and, personally, I don't think you can beat 'em for ANY price now days unless you buy a good, used K22 Masterpiece. Again, JMHO. I doubt there'll ever be another M17 again. That sort of craftsmanship is just impossible what with labor costs in modern times.
 
I couldn't agree with you more.

The 617 may be a fine revolver,,,
But the full underlug.....

I recently handled a 6" 617 and it felt really nose heavy for a 22. I didn't care for it. I do like nose heavy guns on 357's and heavier recoiling guns, but not a 22.

The only other K-frame size DA/SA revolver that I know of is the Ruger SP-101,,,
My not-so-humble opinion is that it isn't even in the same class as a vintage Model 17.

I believe the service and speed series Rugers were closer to a k frame than the SP101. I've always thought of the SP101 as an over built j frame.

Regardless, I own an sp101 in 22 and can confirm your assertion. Compared to a K-22 or a 17-something, my little Ruger is pretty lame and feels really unrefined. For that reason I will likely sell it in the next year to fund a 17-3 or earlier Smith.
 
sjcslk said:
If given a choice, would you pick a new 617 or a model 17 classic?

I can only speak for myself, but when I wanted a 6" barrel, I went with a K-22/M17, as it feels more balanced than a 6" 617. OTOH, when I wanted an "understudy" for my 4" 686, I went with the 4" 617.

FWIW, I've found my bone stock 4" 10-shot 617 to be as accurate and more versatile as my vintage Cunningham-tuned 6" K-22.
 
OTOH, when I wanted an "understudy" for my 4" 686, I went with the 4" 617.

I think that's the ticket right there if a person wanted a modern revolver. 4" 617, and a 17 classic or older lugless gun if you want a longer barrel.

I suppose we are digressing though....
 
If you're stuck on getting a new gun then your choice is the Classic line 17 or the 617. As already posted there is no company making anything that compares in terms of a hand ejector DA/SA.

Korth might be an option for some folks but the price pretty much makes it an option in a class of it's own so I don't feel too bad about more or less ignoring it in the context of your question.

Blue vs stainless and full lug vs no lug is up to you. But in my books there really is only one option. True blue and lugless just looks so nice.

Faster target re-acquisition after each shot? IT'S A RIMFIRE! ! ! ! ! WHAT recoil? :D

Sadly S&W is playing the same quality game as the rest of industry these days. They don't take the time to fully QC every item as part of a gamble that most will be OK. Then they rely on the service center to deal with the bad ones that slip through. It seems to be a sign of the times to cut production costs by gambling in this manner. But it sure doesn't do wonders for a company's reputation. The good news is that the service center seems to do a great job of dealing with the bad ones that leak past. And these days this may be all we can hope for. It's not the same world out there any more where the rank and file will pay up front for that level of quality.
 
The Ruger Single Six is a quality handgun. I have owned two and loved them both. The modern double action 22's I have owned or shot tend to have stiff triggers.
 
When I was shopping for a DA 22, I tried an number of them including the S&W model 17s. However nothing I tried at the time out shot a Dan Wesson that I bought and still have today. Now move forward in time until today, the most accurate factory 22s S&Ws are being made right now. I would not hesitate to get a new Smith. The only thing I would believe that favors the older revolvers may be that they are smoother in double action.
 
I have a pre lock 617 6" that I purchased back in the 80s,very nice trigger and quite accurate. In my better days I could hit 12 ga shotgun empties from a rest at 25 yds.
 
Would it be an option to have a gunsmith trim off the underlug on a 617? If so, does anybody know of a gunsmith that does such a thing?
 
If given a choice, would you pick a new 617 or a model 17 classic? I like the look of the model 17 classic without the underlug, but not sure which would have better balance.

I would not buy the current 'Classic' Model 17, nor would I buy the 617.

At last count I have 3 K 22s, one Model 17-3, one pre-model 18, and one 617.

I have owned the Model 17-3 since 1975 when I bought it brand-spanky new for $125.

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I bought this Model 617-6 used a few years ago. Ordinarily I shun modern MIM parts Smiths, but the price was reasonable, and I was competing in steel matches where I needed to get off 8 aimed shots in 15 seconds. Couldn't do that with a sixgun, could do it with a ten-shooter.

model617-6_zps562f28e0.jpg



The modern S&W 617's and model 17's are every bit as good of shooters as the old guns, but lack many of the finer features of the older guns.


Hardly. Besides being butt ugly with that full length underlug, the trigger on the 617 just does not compare to the triggers on my older K-22s.



Don't let the appearance of this old K-22 from 1932 fool you. It is the most accurate 22 Caliber revolver I own. And the trigger is the best of the bunch. And to rub salt into the wound, it only cost me $550 at auction a few years ago. I won it because the high dollar guys wanted something pristine looking, and boy did they miss the boat on this one. Yeah, the Magna grips are not the correct grips for it. Maybe one of these days if I find a nice set of the correct Service grips, I will put them on. but for now, they work just fine.

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I just picked up this almost mint Postwar K-22 Masterpiece a few weeks ago. Made in 1950 (it's the same age as me). It cost $850 out the door. Pricy? A bit. But have you priced the current models recently? The current 'Classic' K-22 has a MSRP of $989. And the MSRP for the 617 is $829. Even if you get a discount you are still getting MIM parts, a lock, and just plain no old fashioned craftsmanship.

k22%20masterpiece%20pre%20model%2017%2002_zpsgvbmj6f3.jpg


Look for a classic. A real classic. There are lots of them out there. Who knows, you might get one for less then brand new.
 
There is no doubt that the M17 and M18 revolvers are some of the finest examples of rimfires available today. I only have a modern M617 because I couldn't justify paying the same price for an M17 in fairly used condition. I do agree that the full under lug is a detriment to the modern variant. I would have jumped on a model 18 but I couldn't find one under $900. FWIW, I am pretty happy with my M617. It is my most expensive .22 handgun.
 
Johnny Lighning

Or how about a Model 34? Bought this one for my wife a few years back for her first handgun. Perfect for teaching her how to shoot and she does really well with it.

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Modern cnc machining produces a much better product than the old machining methods could ever dream of producing. Tighter tolerances with much less variation from lot to lot. I can remember when S&W offered some really poor workmanship for sale in the 1970's. Not all was 'beer and skittles' in the old days.
 
Modern cnc machining produces a much better product than the old machining methods could ever dream of producing. Tighter tolerances with much less variation from lot to lot. I can remember when S&W offered some really poor workmanship for sale in the 1970's. Not all was 'beer and skittles' in the old days.

Well, hopefully without hijacking this thread too much, I would like to refute a few of your assertions. I tend to get a bit defensive when folks think CNC machining is the greatest thing to come down the pike since sliced bread. I do know a little bit about CNC machining, I used to do CNC programming and milling back in the late 1980s.

There are several reasons why modern industry as a whole has gone over almost completely to CNC machining for mass production of products. One is precision, with some modern CNC equipment, tremendous precision is possible, right down to a few tenths of a thousandth of accuracy. And today one can go almost directly from 3D CAD models to machining parts on CNC equipment. And that highlights another reason why CNC is so effective. It is cheaper to make multiple parts on CNC equipment than it is machining them one at a time on conventional milling machines. And THAT is the main reason CNC dominates industry today, because it is cheaper to make parts that way.

As far as CNC equipment making a 'much better product' than the old machining methods, have you ever lifted the side plate off of a Colt or Smith and Wesson made long before CNC equipment existed? The precise interference fit between the frame and the sideplate was done with pattern making millers that existed long CNC equipment existed. As a matter of fact, some of that equipment was developed before the Civil War, which is what enabled the Springfield Armory to turn out 1000 muskets per day at the high point of production. Precise, hand operated pattern following milling equipment. Equipment that made parts so exact that no fitting was needed.




Here is the frame of a S&W Tip Up Model 1 1/2 made in 1873. All of the milling to hollow out the frame for the lockwork was done with manually operated pattern following equipment. The workpiece and a pattern were clamped onto the machine. The operator manually operated a pantograph which had a stylus that followed the contours of the pattern. The machine cut the pattern into the workpiece.

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The side plate was contoured on pattern following equipment too. Once the side plate was pressed in place, it was hard to see where the joint was. That is how accurate the old pattern following equipment could be.

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Let's look at the machining inside the frame of a Model 17-3, made in 1975 by the way. Pretty nice machining if I do say so myself. Lots of nice CNC generated tool paths. Nice surface finish, no burrs, feedrate looks about right for the type of finish needed. The fly in the ointment is, it doesn't matter! The floor of that entire cavity is a clearance cut. The only place where moving parts were bearing against the floor of the cavity is the rub mark made by the rebound slide near the bottom of the photo. All the other moving parts; hammer, trigger, cylinder stop, rotated on the slightly raised surfaces of the studs they were mounted on. They did not touch the frame at all.

17framecloseup_zps3b6a4e13.jpg




Now let's look at the machining inside the frame of a Model 617-6. Other than the lock, what is the most important difference between the machining of the Model 17 and the Model 617? There are raised circular bosses machined into the floor of the cavity. These circular bosses take the place of the bosses on the studs of the older gun. Notice the studs on this gun are simple straight pins with no features machined onto them. Why was this done? To save money. It is cheaper to add a few lines of code to a CNC program to add a few features, than it is to machine complex shapes onto a pin. In either case the studs are pressed in place in the frame, but money is saved by producing the parts the second way.

617framecloseup_zpse4e420c0.jpg



And that, my friends, is the story of any successful business since time began. Look for ways to drive the cost out of producing a product. Smith and Wesson is no different than any other manufacturer today. Daniel Wesson was a typical penny pinching New Englander. He was continually driving his engineers to find cheaper ways to produce their products. S&W has always had a history of driving the cost out of the product. That's why they went from five screws to four screws and then to three screws. Drilling and tapping costs money, and screws are extra parts in the finished product. Just one simple example.





As a parting shot, here is a photo of the fit between the frame and crane of a brand new Model 686 I bought just a few months ago. The cylinder is completely locked in place, that is as far as the crane goes when it is closed. Does it affect the function of the gun? Not in the least. Does it look sloppy? I think so. Would that have gotten out the door in the pre-MIM parts, pre-CNC days? I doubt it.

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Hope I haven't hijacked this thread too much.
 
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Thank you once again , Mr. Johnson. Excellent short essay.

Given the fact that the topic here is the value of contemporary .22 revolvers vs. the K22 of the past , I believe that your contribution does not constitute a highjack.
 
i don't think one will ever again see the quality that went in to the old k22 masterpiece. burnished chambers and hand lapped barrels are not coming back in a production handgun.

smith and wesson did wonderful things back in the "hellstrom" era.

murf
 
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