What about liberty and property?

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Owen Sparks

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There is a HUGE thread running right now entitled "Would you feel good about killing in self defense?"
Many people have answered. Most say that they would use deadly force if they had to, but would find it a very unpleasant experience. I was just curious, If most of you would use deadly force to protect life, would you also use it to protect your liberty or your property? What If someone were trying to burn down your house, rape your daughter or make you get in the trunk of a car? What if the Mafia demanded you pay "protection money" or a gang of looters targeted your business after a disaster?

As it is now, you pay people to do this for you through taxes (the military) who use deadly force to protect our American interests all around the world.
But sometimes the authorities can't be there. What then?
 
Some of your scenarios could easily fit under self defense (or the defense of others)--the first three without question.
 
Whether one chooses to use the original phrase "life, liberty, and property" or the Declaration's "life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" I think that there is a very important thing to remember.

The Declaration of Independence was written as a moral justification for action once all reasonable methods under the law have been expended. Certainly there are cases when one must act for themselves, such as in a life threatening situation, when immediate action is the only morally reasonable or social responsible course available.

But beyond the immediate risk to health and safety of ourselves or others around us, it isn't likely that a moral justification can be found for the other two in our present society. For example, if someone is breaking into your car and you confront them I see no reason why you should shoot them solely in defense of property. If they attack you or threaten you in some manner it no longer becomes a property issue, but becomes an issue of life which I think anyone would be justified in resisting to the best of their ability. But if they are only interested in taking the property, and make no effort to fight or otherwise threaten I don't think that shooting them can be justified. For that reason, no, I would not shoot someone solely in defense of property.

Further, I don't know that liberty can be justified in our current society either. So long as man has freedom of speech and the votes are being counted I don't think that one has the justification to commit violence without some physical threat to themselves or others. We have a military that protects us, and they do an excellent job. If there were ever a time that war were to come to our land, or a draft installed I think that most would be willing to fight for liberty even if they would not be directly in danger otherwise, but I think that is different from you mean.

In short:
Life: Yes
Liberty: Technically yes, but in our present condition no.
Property: No
 
Nice detailed answer Feud. Obviously this is a subjective opinion as there is no right or wrong answer. We are just talking here.
 
An interesting question is, "Don't we fight wars, and millions of people get killed so that we can enjoy freedom including the owning of property. And should we not be able to defend it as part of our liberty to own property without fear of it being taken from us?"

Jerry
 
If I make the decision that taking a life is necessary for whatever reason, I'll probably be fine with it. Not happy, not sad. Just accepted. Protecting another? Of course. Stopping a threat against liberty? Somewhat vague, but if some sort of clear threat exists that needs stopped absolutely, then yes. Property? Depends. Ain't worth killin a man over a few dollars, though if some Communist was stealing the Declaration of Independence or something...:uhoh:
 
If most of you would use deadly force to protect life, would you also use it to protect your liberty or your property?

I've been waiting...several years...for someone to ask exactly that question.

There's a part of me that is inclined to believe that the hidden intention behind de-legitimizing the use of force to preserve one's life was to make the use of force to preserve one's liberty literally unthinkable.

Unthinkable to the actor, and if the actor happened to actually be an independent thinker who was actually capable of sustaining the thought, then incomprehensible to the public at large, whose reaction to the event would set the tone for whatever followed.
 
But beyond the immediate risk to health and safety of ourselves or others around us, it isn't likely that a moral justification can be found for the other two in our present society. For example, if someone is breaking into your car and you confront them I see no reason why you should shoot them solely in defense of property. If they attack you or threaten you in some manner it no longer becomes a property issue, but becomes an issue of life which I think anyone would be justified in resisting to the best of their ability. But if they are only interested in taking the property, and make no effort to fight or otherwise threaten I don't think that shooting them can be justified. For that reason, no, I would not shoot someone solely in defense of property.

I disagree, I don't know that I would take a life defending my property, but I certainly do think it is morally justifyable. A number of Biblical scriptures point towards the loss of a theif's life being on the theif rather than on the one taking his life. Now many in our current society frown on taking life in defense of property, but it was not always so, and to be honest the move towards such a "civilized" society has done nothing but give power to those who would do ill. Our society/government cannot protect us, and has made it clear that it has no responsibility to do so, and yet we are slowly being stripped of our "right" to do so. Taking a life to defend my property is NOT morally bankrupt, but the combination of the gov's inability to protect/defend me and its restrictions on defending myself are.

Further, I don't know that liberty can be justified in our current society either. So long as man has freedom of speech and the votes are being counted I don't think that one has the justification to commit violence without some physical threat to themselves or others. We have a military that protects us, and they do an excellent job. If there were ever a time that war were to come to our land, or a draft installed I think that most would be willing to fight for liberty even if they would not be directly in danger otherwise, but I think that is different from you mean.

Once again I disagree, just because man's gov says that my rights are no longer valid does NOT mean that they are not. I was endowed by my creator with them, man has no "right" to take them away. For example if the Gov or some other group wants to take away our guns, and those other forms of resistance fail (which certainly seem to have been happening over the last 50 years) then I can certainly say that violent resistance would seem to be in order.
 
I disagree, I don't know that I would take a life defending my property, but I certainly do think it is morally justifyable. A number of Biblical scriptures point towards the loss of a theif's life being on the theif rather than on the one taking his life.

Take this however you like, but although I love the Bible as much as the next guy, I am quite happy that we do not use the legal system laid out in the Old Testament. I enjoy being able to cook my meals on Sunday, and not facing the death penalty for not agreeing with my parents.

Now many in our current society frown on taking life in defense of property, but it was not always so, and to be honest the move towards such a "civilized" society has done nothing but give power to those who would do ill. Our society/government cannot protect us, and has made it clear that it has no responsibility to do so, and yet we are slowly being stripped of our "right" to do so. Taking a life to defend my property is NOT morally bankrupt, but the combination of the gov's inability to protect/defend me and its restrictions on defending myself are.

Saying that a thief on your property is a result of the government's lack of ability to protect you is as fallacious as saying that your house catching on fire is evidence of the fire department's lack of ability to put out fires. Certainly the government does not have the means to prevent every crime from occurring, but that does not give us the moral right to dismiss all other options available and proceed directly to shooting someone who means us no harm.

Further, no one is saying that you do not have a right to defend your property. One may call the police, confront the intruder, etc. I would however argue that, when faced with a person who is neither threatening yourself or others that we do not have the right to decide we are a law unto ourselves, that our property is beyond the laws and governances of the land, and that we have the moral authority to take upon ourselves the role of Judiciary and Executive and hand down a death sentence upon someone without legal trial. Granted that shooting the person may not kill them, but anytime one intentionally shoots another death is a possible consequence and thus becomes the maximum penalty.

The reason that laws were created were not to allow for the punishment of those who deface public property while allowing all crimes against a person to be decided by the self proclaimed victim. Just as you would expect to be afforded your rights to a trial by Jury, legal counsel, the opportunity to face your accuser, and the prohibition of cruel or unusual punishment, those who commit non violent crimes against you should be allowed the same benefit.

Once again I disagree, just because man's gov says that my rights are no longer valid does NOT mean that they are not. I was endowed by my creator with them, man has no "right" to take them away. For example if the Gov or some other group wants to take away our guns, and those other forms of resistance fail (which certainly seem to have been happening over the last 50 years) then I can certainly say that violent resistance would seem to be in order.

The Declaration of Independence states that governments should only be removed, "when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism." Call me a liberal or an anti gunner, but if freedom of speech exists and free elections are being held then I don't know that a gun ban, implemented by said popular government, would qualify as "absolute despotism". In any case, the founders only started shooting once their lives were threatened on Lexington green, which goes back to my original argument that one is justified in shooting when preserving their life (I'm of the opinion the British shot first).

If you can't do something smart ........ do something right!

Jayne Cobb and Shepard Book, an excellent film!
 
would you also use it (deadly force) to protect your liberty
Yes, I already put 13 years in the USMC and Army and as a civilian I would certainlly use deadly force to protect my liberty (if the condions called for it).

would you also use it to protect your your property?
Yes I would use deadly force to protect my property and it is legal in Texas.

What If someone were trying to burn down your house, rape your daughter or make you get in the trunk of a car? What if the Mafia demanded you pay "protection money" or a gang of looters targeted your business after a disaster?
Of course this goes without saying that I'd use deadly force in these cases.

Years ago a killer threatened to kill my Wife. I won't go into details, but the killer was in more danger than my Wife.;)
 
started this thread so now I will offer my own opinion. This is not necessarily about what is right or wrong, or what is legal as that varies from place to place. This is about what YOU would do.

Nature proves that those who do not strongly resist predators routinely get eaten. Human history parallels this as people who are not willing not stand up and protect what is theirs with the force, quickly become subjugated to those who have no qualms against using violence.

I believe in using no more force than necessary, and certainly would not shoot some kid who was running off with my hubcap. But there is a time and a place that the only way to stop being victim is to become such a hard target that the predators move on to something easier. Remember the "Don't tread on me" flag from the American Revolution? People who don't get this principle eventually end up as serfs, peasants, slaves or the prison b---h.

Ben Franklin said it best when he said: "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up doing the plowing for those who don't."

Just my opinion - OS
 
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