What am I missing out on by not having a single stage press for precision rifle reloading?

[Point_Taken]

So I have a Hornady LNL press, fully tuned in and love cranking out ammo. I mostly use it for 9mm and .223, but also have the dies/plate for .30-06. I want to dial in my rifle for long range hunting (300-500 yard) shots.

I see people say they do their precision rifle calibers on single-stage presses for accuracy. What am I missing out on by doing it on a progressive? I mean, I get the case-activated powder cop might not give an exact charge ) think x.0000, but couldn't I negate that by measuring out the charge on a powder-trickle or some other fine-tune device and pouring the charge in at that stage of the press?

Thanks for everyones input

 

[Blue68f100]

Due to base flex you may end up with the base not true with axis.

If is a std production gun it may not be true to start off, so it probably want make much difference.

 

[edwardware]

My new LnL shows measurable differences in sizing force and depth with and without the others stations loaded. That means all your sizing, seating, and crimping operations would need to be fine tuned the last couple thou with the other stations loaded; way too much complexity. You'd also need to separate the first 4 and last 4, since they were loaded without the other 4 stations loaded.

Additionally, it's hard to feel what's going on when there's 5 things going on! I want to feel each operation, especially sizing, priming, and seating.

 

[LiveLife]

My new LnL shows measurable differences in sizing force and depth with and without the others stations loaded. That means all your sizing, seating, and crimping operations would need to be fine tuned the last couple thou with the other stations loaded; way too much complexity. You'd also need to separate the first 4 and last 4, since they were loaded without the other 4 stations loaded.

Wait.

When you are reloading .30-06 or other rifle calibers, shouldn't you be resizing the brass separately so you can trim to length and chamfer the neck?

So when you are reloading progressively, you should only be charging the case with powder and seating the bullet.

Am I missing something?

 

[ms6852]

I have been shooting for more than 1/2 a century, and all my reloads have been on a single stage press the Forster. For me it is about doing things in stages. Reloading for me is relaxing and I get into some type of zen. For me it is not about mass production, it is about start to finish without time being important or amount, just quality. I read a lot about the frustrations that people encounter when using progressives, when something is out of sync, I do not worry about that.

 

[z7]

I am actually curious and might do an experiment here soon.

I have a lnl ap and a hornady single stage, I load most of my 308 on the single stage, I a using varget and I have to trickle the charges anyway

I don’t have a way to measure runnout though, so it will be an accuracy test, maybe 25rds on the single stage vs 25 on the progressive and see how they group.

My 223 is accurate enough on the progressive that I don’t worry about it,

 

[edwardware]

When you are reloading .30-06 or other rifle calibers, shouldn't you be resizing the brass separately so you can trim to length and chamfer the neck?

If you're sizing for a chamber instead of sizing back to SAAMI min, you don't have to trim very often. Setting the shoulder back 0.002 (or 0.004 for a gas gun) only requires trimming every 3rd or 4th cycle when they start to vary in length. If you use an XDie, you only trim once.

No matter what your process is, feeling the operations and noting/investigating differences will lower dispersion.

 

[LiveLife]

Got it.

I just reread the OP and OP is using a hunting rifle (bolt action), not an auto-loader, which can be neck sized only.

I want to dial in my rifle for long range hunting (300-500 yard) shots.

 

[Chuck R.]

I load all my precision stuff on a single stage, .223 and 7.62 I load on one of my Dillons, even those will hold 1MOA sometimes better depending on the rifle. Loading accurate ammo on a progressive is doable, if you don't think so read this:

My loading process is different than many people expect. I load my ammo on a Dillon 650. The powder charges are weighed, and of course I’m using our own Whidden Gunworks dies. The brass is full length sized every time, and I run one of our custom sized expanders in my sizer die. The expander measures .243” which yields the desired .001” neck tension. In my experience, the best way to get consistent neck tension is to run an expander in the case neck at some point. When sizing the case neck by a minimal amount such as is the case here, I don’t find any negative points in using an expander in the sizer die.

In my experience, the keys to accurate long range ammo are top quality bullets and the most consistent neck tension you can produce. From these starting points, the use of quality components and accurate powder measurement will finish out the magic.

http://www.whiddengunworks.com/243-winchester-the-forgotten-6mm-cartridge/

I'm guessing Whidden knows a little something about loading precision ammo, or at least what it takes to win LR matches.

 

[jmorris]

I have done both SS and progressive, what dies and components I use makes a bigger difference that what press I use and far as dimensional variations, run out and such.

 

[cp1969]

Although it's probably a better way, no more than you'll be shooting the '06, I wouldn't buy a single stage press just for that.

 

[Jack B.]

SS press is all I use .I inspect ever round at every step. Accuracy and knowing is king. IMO. When I chamber a round I know what the bullet is going to do when I pull the trigger.

 

[Varminterror]

I've loaded various "grades" of ammunition with every color of press, and every kind; whack-a-mole dies, hand scissor presses, single, turret, progressive, and arbor presses... I've played a bit with different brands of dies, and I've had the luxury of having access to analytical gear PLUS some VERY talented shooters who can reveal the difference between each.

My "bulk blasting ammo" is loaded on a turret or progressive. My moderate volume "practice precision" ammo is loaded on a Turret or single stage. My "precision" ammo is loaded on a single stage, or single + arbor press. I'm not a very capable shooter myself, but I've been able to tell the difference between these loading toolkits, which is why I own all of them.

I liken reloading processes - an ammunition production process - to any industrial/commercial production process I've worked with. I apply the same practices for production performance management and continuous improvement. I may not go neck deep into a Six Sigma Black-Belt Project for my reloading process, but I do utilize the same Kaizen toolkit. When I throw some Measure against reloading practices, the Single Stage presses are the only ones which give the least dimensional dispersion.

A lot of guys will give a quarter or multiple turns to their cases during sizing and seating to help improve consistency - can't really do that on a progressive or auto-index turret.

One thing to keep in mind, however - if you're shooting 3 shot groups, anything can look fantastic, and you may fall into a trap of lying to yourself about your load's actual potential for precision.

 

[Ireload2]

The head to shoulder datum length of bottleneck cases can vary even with single stage presses. Get a Hornady case gage with the datum bushings. Then form or resize 100 large rifle cases and measure each as you resize it.

You will find the cases vary depending on the amount of lube, speed of sizing, dwell time at the top of the strokes.
When you get one that is longer than the rest size it again and it will get shorter. By sizing and measuring you will be able to feel a case that comes out long.
The hardness of the brass will also cause variations.

Size your cases with slow even strokes, let the ram dwell 3 to 5 seconds at the top of the stroke. Retract the ram enough to let you spin the case 120 degrees. Then size again with another dwell. Repeat for a 3rd stroke and 3rd dwell. This will make every case the same length. It is a little bit of extra work but this gives the brass shoulder more time to creep to its final location.

You can even jog the press handle 8 or 10 times at the top of the stroke and eventually the case will take its final set and will quit moving. All of this busy work will prove that your case sizing technique needs attention to yield perfection- that is make all cases the exact same length.

 

[splattergun]

For loading the volume of handgun ammo I shoot, my LCT works well. I'ts plenty precise for my pistol shooting ability. Sure, I could use my LCT as a single stage for rifle, but for my rifles I use a separate SS press only. Rifle ammo is where I get persnickety about precision. I weigh each charge and measure every COL etc. after all, I'm using about 10x the powder weight for rifle as I am for pistol. Mistakes can be disastrous! Also, my rifle shooting ability is a bit better than my pistol skill, so I figure I could see a difference.

 

[TheDomFather]

I will not load rifle on my LNL at all, I use it strictly for pistol and use a Redding Turret for rifle. Typically you are sizing, then charging, only two steps I do simultaneously are seating and then crimping and only if the projectile has a cannelure. I also find my Redding to give me way way way more consistency for OAL than my LNL does. You can certainly use a single stage press as well, the turret just allows me to keep a couple of calibers that I am currently working on and my decap die already in the press.
Dom

 

[Kaldor]

I have done both SS and progressive, what dies and components I use makes a bigger difference that what press I use and far as dimensional variations, run out and such.

Same here
I make handloads that shoot consistently under 1", some under a 1/2" on my LnL Progressive. Take that for what it is, but Ive loaded the same load on my SS Hornady and they arent magically more accurate because I used a SS press. Reality is that the ammo and the rifle are generally more accurate than the shooter. When the shooter is better than the rifle or the ammo, you will know. Then you find ways to shrink the groups further. But generally improvements, if any at all, by changing presses are going to be extremely small. You would be better off investing your time and energy on something else.

How do I know this? I tested it. I found a load that shoots right around .350" 5 shot groups for one of my ARs loaded on my progressive. I loaded 25 on the progressive, and 25 on the SS. I had my son load my mags so I went in blind not knowing which mag was from what press. Shot 10 5 shot groups, all groups were between .300" and .400", with a customary 5 minute cooldown between groups. My son told me the order of the mags I shot, it made absolutely no difference which press they came off.

The best investment Ive made made on that rifle since I built it? A better scope, and a PRS stock. Those two things shrunk my groups about a 1/4" because I wasnt fighting the rifle anymore. Once those were in place then it was a matter of hold and trigger press. Next thing I plan to change that will actually make a difference on my rifle will be the barrel. I think Ive hit the mechanical accuracy limit on a $189 Green Mtn barrel. The other thing will be a better rest and rear bag. Lastly, when I get some time I plan on building an annealer. Im hoping these imcremental upgrades will get my groups down to a consistent .250" or maybe a bit smaller.

 

[fotheringill]

Poster No. 5-

I understand the desire to do things quickly and spending a lot more to accomplish this goal.
However, any exercise can become tedious. I take things in stages in batches of 50-80 cases.
Anneal the batch.
Resize and decap the batch.
Clean primer hole.
Prime.
Drop into a pan, verify weight and pour into case neck.
Seat and put into box with notes.

Doing this may be slightly slower but is not, by and large, mind numbing.

 

[Nature Boy]

I only have a Dillon 650 and load everything on it.

Mind you, when loading for precision rifle rounds (.308 mostly) I’m running it as a single stage.

I prime, throw a charge, remove from station 2, trickle up to my desired weight, then stick it back in station 4 to seat bullet, then pull it off and stick it in the box.

The exception is on sizing. I load my lubed brass in the auto case feeder with a Dillon FL sizing die in station 1. I turn on the feeder and start pulling the handle until it’s empty. That’s got to be a huge time saver. Factor into the equation that all of my dies are set up in their dedicated tool heads. That has to make the process even easier and faster than a singe stage press.

As for precision goes I believe the results speak for themselves. Just completed my 3rd F Class match this month and I’m anticipating a NRA Mid Range High Master Classification to come in the mail in a few weeks. There may come a point in the future of this ridiculous hobby when I feel like my ammo is hold me back and I need a singe stage, but I’m not there yet

 

[ms6852]

I am actually curious and might do an experiment here soon.

I have a lnl ap and a hornady single stage, I load most of my 308 on the single stage, I a using varget and I have to trickle the charges anyway

I don’t have a way to measure runnout though, so it will be an accuracy test, maybe 25rds on the single stage vs 25 on the progressive and see how they group.

My 223 is accurate enough on the progressive that I don’t worry about it,

I would love to hear about your results. I think it will be interesting to see if there are major variances in your findings. Please let us know how it goes.

 

[Bartojc]

I only have a turret. All rifle ammo is loaded with the index rod pulled and I use it as a single stage. The exception to this is .223 for an AR.

I've considered getting a single stage for rifle and small batch hunting stuff. It just seems easier.

-jeff

 

[Walkalong]

I do not size while loading rifle calibers on my LNL. I size first, do the prep, then load, so loading only includes powder drop and seating. Does as good of a job as a single stage.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I also have my rifle brass preped and final loading is primer, powder and bullet seating. Much of the times I do that on a Lee Classic Turret Press.

 

[morrow]

I load match grade 308 i have great accuracy results with on my Dillon xl650
I size/deprime separate
Then I run it through the press and prime, drop powder. I set the powder die a little low. I remove the shell from the press to trickle in the rest of the powder on my scale
Then seat bullet and pull handle.
Much faster than any single stage, and I don't need to bother with another press on my (sadly) limited bench space!

 

[Whiterook808]

For most rifle cartridges I load 40 to 100 rounds at a time. On the single stage I just screw in the die and snap in the shell holder and go to work. If I were to load those small volumes on my 550 I would have to buy the cartridge conversion kit & tool head, and fiddle with installing it and all that. If you buy a tool head, dies, cartridge conversion kit, power measure and power die from Dillon these days that adds up too over $200, not including shipping.