What constitutes "using" a gun in self defense?

[JellyJar]

Leadcounsel has a thread going here asking "Who has used a gun in self defense". I believe that before you can answer that question you first have to define what exactly constitutes "using" a gun when it come to self defense or defense of another innocent person.

I say this because many years ago in Houston Texas while working in a furniture store we had an incident where two suspicious men came off the street and frighten us. Neither did anything overtly threatening but we could tell they were casing the store as if trying to decide to rob us or something. I held a gun in my hand behind my back where they could not see it as I stood behind a desk and called the police. One of the men looked at me and then whispered something to the other and they then both left.

They had been gone hardly more than a minute or two before a policeman showed up. We gave him their description and told what happened. The next thing I remember I looked out the front door and saw the two men, in handcuffs, in the back of the patrol car. They then drove away and we never saw them again.

Also, the police never took a statement or asked us to file a complaint or anything. Apparently the police had enough cause to arrest them and that was that.

I cannot be absolutely sure but I am about 80% to 90% certain that having the gun dissuaded them from trying to commit a crime. If that is so then you don't always have to even directly threaten a criminal from attacking you for a firearm to be useful in SD situations.

I wonder how often, if much at all, criminals defer from trying to commit a crime for fear that the intended victim may be armed. If it is often ( at least in places where SD firearms are common ) then it is true what they say "Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens prevent crime".

What you ya'll think

 

[sargas23]

I think in your case the bad guys decided to leave because you were looking at them and seemed to be aware of what they were doing. Criminals would rather catch you unaware if at all possible - especially if you "might" have access to a gun.

A good illustration of this is the crimewave that always happens in the mall parking lots around Christmas. The victims are usually walking out to their cars which are parked farther away than usual from the mall because of the crowds. There are a lot of people who have to shop after work, so some of them are in the lots when it's dark, and they are walking back to their cars with an armload of packages and fumbling for keys. Perfect target for the 2-legged predators. You don't pay attention and they ambush you.

I think if I was a business owner (especially if I was one who had to deal with the possibility of attempted hold-ups), I'd not only have a big sign on the door which said "We welcome CCW's" , but I'd also have every one of my employees open carry while on the premises of my business. That, and make sure the cops on the beat in that area knew that I had plenty of soft drinks, coffee, and snacks available to them whenever they stopped by!

 

[TexasRifleman]

I believe that before you can answer that question you first have to define what exactly constitutes "using" a gun when it come to self defense or defense of another innocent person.

I've seen it somewhere, NRA or who knows, that 99% of defensive gun uses take place without having a shot fired. I believe that. May not be as high as 99% but that wouldn't surprise me.

The other thing I remember reading about that is that since no shots are fired many of these never get reported to any authority so they are not documented.

Hard to say, but I personally consider the display of a firearm to be "using" it, if it makes the bad guys go away.

 

[danprkr]

I think in your case the bad guys decided to leave because you were looking at them and seemed to be aware of what they were doing. Criminals would rather catch you unaware if at all possible - especially if you "might" have access to a gun.

So true. Who would a thunk it, but the best situational awareness training I ever received was from 7-11, and they were right. Looking at, and greeting everyone who comes in the store saved me many potential issues. Even in other stores after I'd left them. In one video store I got caught away from the counter stocking the shelves with returns, and therefore away from my weapon. Long story, and not a mistake I made twice. But, by walking right at, and through the group of gang bangers while looking them in the eye, recommending a movie, and greeting them I'm 90% certain that I stopped at least some vandalism. Once I was behind the counter they left.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

In this event, as described, IMO you did not use your gun. Although you had it readily to hand and were prepared to use it if necessary, it never really came into play as the miscreants never actually saw it. In Jeff Cooper's mental readiness color code, you would only have been in Condition Orange - focusing on a specific threat - at that point. If you go to Condition Red - the situation has escalated and you're ready to shoot or fight - and pull the gun, you can then be said to have used the gun, whether or not you actually fire it.

 

[Gottahaveone]

Hard to say, but I personally consider the display of a firearm to be "using" it, if it makes the bad guys go away.

Does using a gun magazine count? Several years ago my washer broke. I was sitting alone in a laundry mat in a not so nice part of town reading a gun mag and waiting for the clothes to finish when 3 teen aged wanna be's strolled in and looked around. After glancing at me a couple of times they walked up and one said "hey...gimme a dollar", I said "No." and went back to reading the mag laying in my lap. He said "I SAID, gimme a dollar M...F..."

I raised the mag up where they could see the cover and said "Think real hard about why you might want to go away". They called me some names and left. I took my clothes and did the same. It never reached the point where I felt it necessary to actually pull a weapon but had the situation gotten worse I was willing and able to. I think it was the best possible outcome and it should count as "using" a weapon even though it was never presented, much less fired. Had I not had one ready at hand I would have never simply bluffed about it.

 

[BCCL]

IMO, "using a gun in self defense" means any situation in which the presence of your gun, was known to your attacker/intruder and therefore affected their behavior in a manner that prevented harm to you or someone else. i.e. they fled or submitted.

It does not require you to actually fire the gun.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I raised the mag up where they could see the cover and said "Think real hard about why you might want to go away". They called me some names and left.

THAT is a truly great story

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Also, the police never took a statement or asked us to file a complaint or anything. Apparently the police had enough cause to arrest them and that was that.

They probably had outstanding warrants for their arrests.

 

[DeputyVaughn]

To answer the question of "using" a gun in self defense opens several cans of worms. However, I get the question often enough to have a prepared response.
I tell anyone that ask that in most states, a person using a firearm for self defense has to have a reasonable fear for their life or of great bodily harm. They also had better be able to articulate that fear in a courtroom. He scared me isn't good enough. This is what he did that scared me is needed and needs to be something that a reasonable man would conclude was a threat to a life.
I also warn people not to do warning shots. Discharging a firearm "is" using deadly force even if it isn't aimed at the offender. If you've got reason enough to pull the trigger the reasonable fear for life or great bodily harm must be present for it to be justified.

Scott

 

[DeputyVaughn]

Deleted as a duplicate message

 

[shockwave]

On a philosophically related note, it is often the case that fear of harm or injury causes a person to panic and escalate a situation needlessly or drive it in an unfortunate direction. A trained individual with fighting skills can remain calm longer in the face of danger and explore multiple options, knowing that there's always a "last-resort" option in hand.

Likewise, the CCW holder is holding a strong card and in remaining cool may avert a potentially bad situation without producing the firearm. Yet, the presence of the firearm is partly responsible for the optimal outcome. In this way, it can be argued that the weapon was "used," even though it was not visibly produced.