Bartholomew Roberts
Member
This might also serve as a good post in the "Guns are not a magic talisman" thread in S&T. If you aren't going to train with it, a firearm won't be of much use.
Clerk Attempts Self-Defense, Forgets Safety
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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This might also serve as a good post in the "Guns are not a magic talisman" thread in S&T. If you aren't going to train with it, a firearm won't be of much use.
Grandpa Shooter
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Also could tie in with, "Guns with safeties that operators don't know how to use!"
average_shooter
Member
Admittedly, I don't practice as much as I should, or would like to, and this sort of thing has me contemplating switching to a <gasp
> Glock from my 1911...
> Glock from my 1911...Bartholomew Roberts
Member
It's just tragic to see someone who makes the mental connection that he is responsible for his own safety and buys a firearm; but then doesn't realize he has to do more than just buy the firearm or shoot it occasionally.
Here is hoping that the police identify those responsible and they are finally put somewhere where they cannot menace the public.
Here is hoping that the police identify those responsible and they are finally put somewhere where they cannot menace the public.
damien
Member
This reminds me of a recurrant story I hear several times a year. It goes like this:
blahblahblahblah, then the criminal tried to shoot victim but the gun jammed. Victim is fine this morning and giving report to police.
This story is reprinted all the time. I am starting to think either the criminal had a safety on or, more likely, preferring automatics, the criminal got an automatic and loaded the clip but never chambered a round, not knowing about that little detail. The criminals don't go to ranges very often. Too easy to get caught there.
In the case of criminals, lack of training has actually saved lives. In this case, it cost the shopowner his.
blahblahblahblah, then the criminal tried to shoot victim but the gun jammed. Victim is fine this morning and giving report to police.
This story is reprinted all the time. I am starting to think either the criminal had a safety on or, more likely, preferring automatics, the criminal got an automatic and loaded the clip but never chambered a round, not knowing about that little detail. The criminals don't go to ranges very often. Too easy to get caught there.
In the case of criminals, lack of training has actually saved lives. In this case, it cost the shopowner his.
Shadowangel
Member
If you practice with your 1911, it shouldn't be a problem... you'd need practice with the glock as well, might as well just do the practice instead of buying a new gun to offset your deficiency with a 1911.
Creature
Member
I like how not disengaging the safety is labeled as a malfunction...
Tommygunn
Member
Well, this is a good argument for a revolver for people who don't want to spend a great deal of time familiarizing themselves with a semiauto ...
I feel bad for Mr. Hailu, though .
I feel bad for Mr. Hailu, though .
Elza
Member
Always sad to hear things like this. The poor guy gets killed and the anti-gun crowd gets more grist for their grinder as well.
One of the reasons I still go for old fashioned wheel guns. They tend to be panic proof.
One of the reasons I still go for old fashioned wheel guns. They tend to be panic proof.
bluestarlizzard
Member
dude, if he didn't know how to take the safty off, he probably didn't know how to shoot either. buying a gun does not (and never has) made someone instantly safer. just like buying a car doesn't get you where you wanna go if you don't know how to drive it.
and that is not a good argument for a revolver.
and that is not a good argument for a revolver.
Tommygunn
Member
Yes it is.
While no one is saying he shouldn't have made himself more proficient with a defense weapon, the fact is that there is less to forget with a revolver in a situation occurs in which there is duress -- which doesn't exist in a range. Ask G. Gordon Liddy -- this is his idea and he's been there, done that.
While no one is saying he shouldn't have made himself more proficient with a defense weapon, the fact is that there is less to forget with a revolver in a situation occurs in which there is duress -- which doesn't exist in a range. Ask G. Gordon Liddy -- this is his idea and he's been there, done that.
v35
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Like six feet underground.
Faced with an immediate threat to my life like Mr. Hailu had, who knows what my mental state would be, but I would guess "total panic" would be about right. The only hope to prepare for something like that is to train, train, train.
Points to the idiocy of the DC gun ban law. When you need a gun, you need it to work and you need it right now.
Elza
Member
Exactly my thoughts, Tommygun. I have never faced a combat situation, civilian or military. I am running under the quaint assumption that if this were to happen I would crap down both legs! The last thing I need is to fumble with a safety. While no problem on the range it still requires fine motor control which can well head south under stress. It might not be a problem for me but I don’t wish to find out the hard way. For all I know I might have trouble just getting it out of the holster! I sincerely hope I never have to find out.
The moral of the story is we don’t know the entire story. My wife and I have carry permits. We have a retail store (I am typing this from here) and a handgun specifically for the premises.
We train and carry with our handguns loaded, hammer down, safety off. We don’t use handguns that cannot do this safely. This way we know exactly what condition any of our handguns will be in, in a sudden emergency.
A few weeks ago I was checking the store’s firearm and the safety was ON. Inquired of the wife and she was shocked too. It seems MIL was “helping us” be safe.
During the period of time the safety was engaged, this story could have been about us.
The moral of the story is that any sheeple with access to your firearm is going to do what a sheeple does best. Due to the nature of our store I cannot immediatly remedy the situation but I am working on it.
We train and carry with our handguns loaded, hammer down, safety off. We don’t use handguns that cannot do this safely. This way we know exactly what condition any of our handguns will be in, in a sudden emergency.
A few weeks ago I was checking the store’s firearm and the safety was ON. Inquired of the wife and she was shocked too. It seems MIL was “helping us” be safe.
During the period of time the safety was engaged, this story could have been about us.
The moral of the story is that any sheeple with access to your firearm is going to do what a sheeple does best. Due to the nature of our store I cannot immediatly remedy the situation but I am working on it.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That's kinda what I was wondering. All weekend they have been referring to this "malfunction". Makes me wonder if there was more than just the safety manipulation here.
apollosmith
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Beyond knowing your weapon and how it works, it's also important to have your weapons in the same condition all the time. My carry weapon has had the same bullet in the chamber continually for 2 weeks (which reminds me that it's been too long since I've gone shooting.
The other pistol in our home (the one my wife would use if I'm gone) is a 92FS that has a full magazine, is not chambered, and the safety is off. My wife doesn't know much about guns, but she knows to make it go bang, she has to rack the slide and pull the trigger - and that's it. BTW, she made the decision about what condition it would be in.
As long as the weapons are always in the same condition, you don't have to try and remember if it's loaded, chambered, or the safety is on, because chances are you won't be able to remember in such a situation.
The other pistol in our home (the one my wife would use if I'm gone) is a 92FS that has a full magazine, is not chambered, and the safety is off. My wife doesn't know much about guns, but she knows to make it go bang, she has to rack the slide and pull the trigger - and that's it. BTW, she made the decision about what condition it would be in.
As long as the weapons are always in the same condition, you don't have to try and remember if it's loaded, chambered, or the safety is on, because chances are you won't be able to remember in such a situation.
That's a shame, I'd much rather hear about two dead criminals. I know way too many gun owners who purchased their handguns to defend themselves and really never take it out and learn to use it properly. By time I start carrying a handgun on my waist I'm going to be taking the advanced self defense courses..everyone should.
Do we know that? Isn't it possible that the stress of a real situation was far different than what training prepared him for? Just because I draw and turn off the safety 500 times during a class, does it guarantee that I will do the same thing when my hands are shaking, I have two guns pointed at me, and I'm worried about actually pulling the trigger on another person? It probably is a training issue but it seems reasonable to believe it isn't always.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Bartholomew,
For all we know he trained three or four times a week but in the stress of the situation he was simply so scared he forgot about the safty. I still remember my Uncle's rather pithy advice that the best defense sidearm is one that you can hit a target with when scared enough to pee your pants. Which is why I have a revolver in the drawer of my bedstand.
Selena
For all we know he trained three or four times a week but in the stress of the situation he was simply so scared he forgot about the safty. I still remember my Uncle's rather pithy advice that the best defense sidearm is one that you can hit a target with when scared enough to pee your pants. Which is why I have a revolver in the drawer of my bedstand.
Selena
Nortonics
Member
OR -
He listened to the constant gibberish about never pointing a gun at another human being. You know - "Don't point that thing at somebody, it could go off!" Or the B.S. about shooting ranges not allowing targets of humans.
Been a lot written about not being prepared mentally to actually point a loaded gun at somebody for whatever reason, no less pulling the trigger. Pretty dumb stuff if one carries a firearm for self protection.
Get used to it, and stop practice shooting at bulls-eye targets for Christ sake - do so and you too will have a likely chance ending up like the subject of this story...
He listened to the constant gibberish about never pointing a gun at another human being. You know - "Don't point that thing at somebody, it could go off!" Or the B.S. about shooting ranges not allowing targets of humans.
Been a lot written about not being prepared mentally to actually point a loaded gun at somebody for whatever reason, no less pulling the trigger. Pretty dumb stuff if one carries a firearm for self protection.
Get used to it, and stop practice shooting at bulls-eye targets for Christ sake - do so and you too will have a likely chance ending up like the subject of this story...
Happens both ways. A Dallas security guard recently shot and killed two of three persons who attempted to commit an armed robbery against him. They found several live rounds near the first robber--apparently he couldn't get his gun running.
Doesn't matter how good you are or how good your gun is if you can't make it work when you need it.
Doesn't matter how good you are or how good your gun is if you can't make it work when you need it.
Funderb
Member
should've given the poor clerk a hand grenade.
much easier to use.
Poor guy, wish it could have turned out better for him.
much easier to use.
Poor guy, wish it could have turned out better for him.
revjen45
Member
That's why I carry a gun that requires no other action than to point and pull the trigger.
At least a couple of others have made a very good point on this, maybe he forgot the safety because he was terrified during the moment. That is all it takes to stress out to a panic stage and then lose muscle memory of taking off the safety. Of course, maybe he never carried with the safety on either, and thereby was at a momentary loss as to what was the problem without panic even being involved. All it takes to lose your life is a moment in a shootout.
Just on that alone, I have to agree with most others, TRAIN -TRAIN - TRAIN. Sure you may still forget to do something if you panic, but had you trained for malfunctions, and for user errors like forgetting the safety is engaged - then something like this would be less likely to have happened if it actually was due to user error.
One other thing that was curious: the bad guys take money and other stuff, and apparently left the clerk's gun behind. Now while you may think maybe the police got it from the guy they arrested, I doubt it because how would they know about the condition of the gun when Mr. Hailu had trained it on the bad guys. Likely had it in his hand when he died and that is where it stayed until found by the police.
All the best,
Glenn B
Just on that alone, I have to agree with most others, TRAIN -TRAIN - TRAIN. Sure you may still forget to do something if you panic, but had you trained for malfunctions, and for user errors like forgetting the safety is engaged - then something like this would be less likely to have happened if it actually was due to user error.
The reason I say if it was due to user error is because we all are, including myself, assuming a lot about this. The officer or reporter said there was weapon malfunction, and the safety was still on. Maybe there was a malfunction and the safety could not be disengaged, or it did not disengage properly. I actually had the safety lever fall off of a pistol once, and have seen it happen quite a few other times. Any piece that is pinned can fall off. I guess the chances are though, that what happened was that this poor guy failed to remove the safety, and died because of that momentary lapse due to whatever such as panic or lack of training. A sad state of affairs being that he paid with his life while trying to do the right thing. To bad the good guy died, my thoughts are with him and his family.
One other thing that was curious: the bad guys take money and other stuff, and apparently left the clerk's gun behind. Now while you may think maybe the police got it from the guy they arrested, I doubt it because how would they know about the condition of the gun when Mr. Hailu had trained it on the bad guys. Likely had it in his hand when he died and that is where it stayed until found by the police.
All the best,
Glenn B
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