What did you learn about handguns from IDPA or other competitions?

[DAP90]

From time to time I see people who take part in these types of competitions saying that they are a great place to test equipment and techniques and that by doing so you can learn what does and does not work.

So briefly, what did you learn? What works for you? What doesn’t work? What mistakes would you avoid if you could do it all over?

I’m asking from the viewpoint of competition as it relates to carry, though I realize that sometimes these viewpoints can be at odds with each other.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh, wow. Great question!

In no particular order:
1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)

2) All the cool gear in the world, and the neatest, prettiest, most venerable, gun ever made, doesn't make a bit of difference to the timer. The timer doesn't lie. What works, works. Nothing else matters.

3) Laser sights don't have a place in my arsenal. (Except for certain training tasks.)

4) Hits count. Fast hits count more. Slow hits might not count at all. Carry whatever you can shoot most accurately -- FASTEST. 9mm vs. .45 doesn't matter. If you shoot 9mm faster accurately, carry the 9!

5) Carry what you compete with. BUG gun matches, where everyone tries desperately and laughably to shoot their little "daily carry" guns, are not FUNNY. They are SCARY. Or they should be, anyway.

6) Mags and gun need to be in the same place, held securely, in the right orientation, every single time. You might need them NOW.

7) Your worst day at the match -- take that miserable performance and make all your hits about three times worse. That's about what you can expect of yourself if forced to draw in the face of a violent attack.

8) You need to be practicing with a light. You need to practice in very low light WITHOUT a light. You need to learn to use a light correctly, so you're not just a bullet magnet.

9) Buy good gear. You don't have to break the bank. The name doesn't matter, but if your gear sucks, it will let you down at the worst time in the worst way.

10) There is no excuse for an unreliable gun. Ever. Don't bring it to the match, don't stake your life on it. Get it fixed. Run the snot out of it in competition until you KNOW it works every time.

10a) Know every single way your gun could fail, and exactly what to do when it does. Practice these things until you cannot fail to clear a malfunction without even having to think about it. In competition, the clock doesn't stop running. Sometimes there might be even more important things on the line.

 

[Dr_B]

I shoot in steel matches and action pistol. I'd say the main thing I've learned are that (at least for me) the ergonomics of the gun play a huge role. I need to shoot something that I can operate under pressure. Let me explain...

I've tried my revolver, my 1911, and my Sig P226 in separate matches. I have thousands of rounds through each one during practice. I can consistently hit most anything from 6 feet up to 25 yards with any of those pistols.

But there are some issues. My revolver is reliable, but has a low capacity. My 1911 is accurate, but also has a relatively low capacity, and it costs me more to reload. My P226 is completely reliable, but it just doesn't work for me under pressure. I can hit anything with it when I can take my time, in spite of the heavy first trigger pull. But when I'm under pressure to shoot quickly, especially at moving targets, the first round is wasted unless the target is close.

I've been shooting M&P's for a little while now and recently switched over to an M&P9 for my competition gun. It just works for me. The combination of grip, high axis, and light trigger were perfect. I could go back to the 1911 and practice magazine changes to get my times shorter. Or I could practice mastering the 10lb Sig trigger on the first shot. OR... I can just go with my M&P9 that has worked perfectly from the beginning.

I would not view a pistol match as a place to find out how well my gun works though. It is definitely a place to find out where your weaknesses are as a shooter. I wouldn't take a gun out there to test its functioning in a match.

Test function in your gun before you ever take it to a match. I took my M&P out and put almost 1000 rounds through it before I shot it in a match. I shot it up close, far away from targets, from the ground, from behind barricades, fast, slow, with different bullet weights, and different powder charges.

My match performance and knowledge of how to run my gun is always changing though. I think I have found the right tool in the M&P9 but there is always room for development. And my choice of gun isn't necessarily the best for the next person.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My experience in IDPA mirrors Sam's quite a bit. These stand out in my mind, also in no particular order:

1. Just because a gun feels like it is pointing correctly on a static range, doesn't mean it will point the same way when rapidly drawn from a holster.

2. Clip on magazine carriers are as securely attached to your belt as you'd like to think. It can be a pain to thread your carriers on a belt, but at least they don't come out as you draw the magazine.

3. Being able to perform a technique smoothly a few times in practice, doesn't mean you can do it on demand. More practice.

4. Knowing how to clear a stoppage isn't enough. Recognising the signs that a stoppage has occurred and reacting immediately is the key

5. Some guns really do fail more than other guns when used quickly in less than ideal conditions...and there is a whole culture of denial around some guns

6. A revolver can be reloaded as quickly as a magazine fed pistol and it can be shot as quickly and as accurately by regular people.
6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers
6b. Most folks don't understand how to correctly perform a magazine change

7. Fast hits really are more important than tight groups, but without enough accuracy, all you're doing is making noise

8. You really can learn to see your sights faster

 

[taliv]

1. guns that "never had a jam in 1000s of rounds" shot from a bench will almost always malfunction in a match or class.
2. holsters are really friggin important
3. people go buzzer dumb
4. no plan ever survived 1st contact with the enemy. almost everybody thinks they're going to run a stage one way then does something completely different
5. (this doesn't apply to IDPA because IDPA is lame) watch 50 people shoot a USPSA stage and you will see 50 different ways to solve a problem, some a lot better than others. odds are good you will say "oh, why didn't I think of doing it that way??" (and shoot it better next time)
6. you will eventually find a combination of gun, gun care, ammo, equipment and techniques that rarely malfunctions.
7. most people can't move and shoot at the same time. i don't mean they are lousy shots. i mean they try but their brain shuts off their feet and they stop to take shots even when the stage rules require shooting while moving.*
8. you learn where to put tape on your hands to prevent blisters from shooting and worse, from reloading mags
9. you learn which sights work faster for you in various conditions
10. you learn how annoying it is to manipulate a firearm while carrying a dummy or barrel or something
11. you learn how much easier it is to miss when carrying or dragging some weight that's pulling your torso off the preferred stance


* i secretly suspect this is a result of people's brains conditioning. I wonder if it would be different outside of the range. e.g. "I am at a range. I am supposed to be shooting. oh, and i need to remember to move too. [fail]" versus "holy crap! i need to run away! oh, and maybe i should pull this trigger while i'm at it"

 

[9mmepiphany]

7. most people can't move and shoot at the same time. i don't mean they are lousy shots. i mean they try but their brain shuts off their feet and they stop to take shots even when the stage rules require shooting while moving.*

* i secretly suspect this is a result of people's brains conditioning. I wonder if it would be different outside of the range. e.g. "I am at a range. I am supposed to be shooting. oh, and i need to remember to move too. [fail]" versus "holy crap! i need to run away! oh, and maybe i should pull this trigger while i'm at it"

You might be right.

I think I've learned 5 or 6 different ways to shoot on the move. The first was the funniest "Shoot between steps"...much like shooting between breaths (maybe rifles, but not for handguns)...and the hardest (but likely most realistic) has been "Shoot at the pace you can see the sights, just keep moving your feet"

Part of it is that most folks walk forward by falling and catching themselves by moving a leg forward...there is a psychological/emotional desire to prioritize catching yourself over sighting and shooting. The funny thing is that most folks walk backwards completely differently...it is actually more martially sound...and so shoot better moving backwards than forwards

 

[DAP90]

1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)

Any observations about what types of designs generally seem to work better? I’m not looking for specific models (unless you want to name names), just features that seem to work.

1. Just because a gun feels like it is pointing correctly on a static range, doesn't mean it will point the same way when rapidly drawn from a holster.

So if I’m in a gun store, and rapidly drawing and shooting it is not an option, is there any way to tell if it will point correctly?

6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers

Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.

2. holsters are really friggin important

Do you have a favorite style?

 

[taliv]

milt sparks summer special II

(and depending on the type of match, i also have a race holster and several flavors of kydex holsters that i fight with more than i use)


edit: i should add that holsters are not one-size fits all. if your love handles move laterally for a while past your belt, you may find the holster above uncomfortable. what works for me may or may not work for you. point of this thread, i think, is what YOU will learn.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Sam, 9mm and Taliv covered a lot but I'd like to add my 2 cents.

1. Be safe, then work on accuracy, then speed. Doing a lot of wrong things very fast isn't the way to go.

2. Guns jam and sometimes when you use them hard, parts break.

3. A tap/rack/bang drill isn't the same as a jam under duress.

4. When an auto jams tap/rack/bang usually works. When a revolver jams you better have a second gun.

4a. Speedloaders put bullets on the ground faster than in the gun. Practice your moves carefully, and use quality speedloaders.

5. Long guns are superior to handguns in most situations. Run an IDPA course with a handgun, then a rifle or shotgun and you'll see what I mean.

6. Theres a lot of standing around waiting to shoot, take the time to be social, have a good time. Being relaxed usually helps you shoot better.

 

[DAP90]

point of this thread, i think, is what YOU will learn.

Sure, I get that. I’m not looking for an equipment list. More like what to expect or try to learn in advance, what ideas, features or techniques seem to work well generally speaking and what seems like a good idea in theory but is awful in actual use.

Why waste time and money trying to figure it all out for myself when many of you have moved past the obvious mistakes?

 

[CatsEye]

One thing you learn in competition is that there are certain guns that are more relaible than others. There is a reason most IDPA competitors shoot either Glock or M&P. They are easy to shoot and they just plain run. You can easily put 1000 rounds through either without cleaning and they will just keep shooting. You can't say that about a lot of guns. This is one of the reasons they are popular with law enforcement agencies. They hold up to abuse and neglect and still function.

The biggest thimg about technique you learn is that most gun owners have no clue how to actually handle their weapon and shoot quickly. Under any type of stress they revert back to point shooting. At more than a few yards few people can do this well. At the first sign of trouble with their gun they are lost about what to do. Competition teaches you to react to the situation as it happens instead of stopping to think about it.

 

[1SOW]

Why waste time and money trying to figure it all out for myself when many of you have moved past the obvious mistakes?

Answer: a great number variables The shooter, the gun, the venue, to name just three with many variables within each---especially the shooter. How many habits do you need to "break" before you can start to progress? Abilities/debilities--often tied somewhat tied to age. Gun preferences, class you prefer to shoot in, etc. etc etc........

A good recommendation often offered here and everywhere else, is to take what you've got and go shoot a match.
Great revelations will happen. Don't go thinking speed and competition. Go thinking safety and to learn/gain information. Go to meet the other shooters. They are good people who will help. Other shooters will offer advice for "YOU" considering YOUR ability and equipment.

Other than safety, "mistakes" aren't BAD. Repeating mistakes is BAD.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So if I’m in a gun store, and rapidly drawing and shooting it is not an option, is there any way to tell if it will point correctly?

The optimal route is to learn to shoot before buying your first gun...I have done this for several clients. It also gives you an idea of what you are most comfortable with before committing to a trigger style.

I've found that most folks do not naturally grip a pistol correctly...it is a bit counter-intuitive...they over grip and want to use their thumbs. Many folks will choose guns that have overly full grips, because they like the way it fill their hands.

Or you can just do what the rest of us have done and just keep buying guns until you get one that shoot like an extension of your will. I've competed with all the actions (DA/SA, DAO, SAO), strikers and hammers, steel, alloy and polymer...looking for my Excaliber.

It was just a few days ago that I stumbled across what seems to be causing my alignment errors coming out of the holster...which I can fix with a Dremel or a different holster...and how to address an issue I'm having in consistent alignment for more difficult shots...which I'm addressing with Sugru

Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.

Yes, bullets down and pointing forward. It is very common to see folks wearing the bullet pointing to the rear and also to see them grabbing the magazine without the index finger along the front...the finger tip should ideally touch the nose of the first round

The holster that works best for you will be dependent on your body shape, where your waist crosses your body, your upper arm, and collar bone, length and where you choose to where your holster

 

[Sam1911]

1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)

Any observations about what types of designs generally seem to work better? I’m not looking for specific models (unless you want to name names), just features that seem to work.

From my observations of shooting competition with duty style or "service style" pistols, it appears to me that the state of design is trending toward polymer-framed, striker fired autos without external safety devices. For all the love of old steel and wood (or even aluminum and plastic!) and external hammers, and even the venerable 1911, the Glocks and such guns are really doing "combat" or "practical" shooting better/faster/easier for most shooters than other more classic designs.

My eyes were pretty much fully opened to this when I watched Dave Olhasso win the CDP division (that's custom 1911s!) at the 2008 IDPA Nationals -- using a stock-ish $500 plastic .45ACP S&W M&P, downloaded to play with all those custom 1911s.

I've tried many different kinds of guns in competition. I regularly compete with 1911s, revolvers, xDM, CZ, ... but the fastest time I've ever shot the IDPA Classifier in, was one afternoon when I borrowed a bone stock S&W M&P from a friend.

6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers

Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.

You got it!

2. holsters are really friggin important

Do you have a favorite style?

Anything OWB strong-side is good, as long as it is rigid, fits the gun WELL, and doesn't have a thumb-break. Kydex straight-drop holsters are fastest.

 

[Sam1911]

5. Long guns are superior to handguns in most situations. Run an IDPA course with a handgun, then a rifle or shotgun and you'll see what I mean.

AHhhhh, this is one I have to disagree with, as I've been playing with this idea all year (and debating it with JShirley a bit, too).

I cannot TOUCH my pistol scores with a carbine. There is, I believe, some distance out (Maybe it's 15 yds. Maybe 20?) where the inherant stability of a carbine and the accuracy that gives will start to overtake the speed of presentation, target/sight aquisition, speed of transitions, speed of shot-recovery and so forth that a handgun gives.

At 30+ yards, no doubt at all!

Inside 15? No friggin' way! (But I shoot 100+ handgun rounds for every rifle round I fire in practice, so that says a lot.)

 

[Sam1911]

The biggest thimg about technique you learn is that most gun owners have no clue how to actually handle their weapon and shoot quickly. Under any type of stress they revert back to point shooting. At more than a few yards few people can do this well. At the first sign of trouble with their gun they are lost about what to do. Competition teaches you to react to the situation as it happens instead of stopping to think about it.

I'll add a bit to this, as it is very good.

There is basic familiarity with weapons: Many shooters have this. How does it work? How do I align the sights? How do I unload it?

Then there is marksmanship skill: How do I present the gun, control the trigger, follow-through well, and get accuracy? A few shooters have these skills, though that number is distressingly low.

Then there is range competency: How does one move on a dynamic range, stay safe, work with a holster and reloads? Can I actually accomplish a given task with a weapon efficiently and without endangering anyone? Most shooters who've done some training classes and/or IDPA/USPSA type matches get this pretty well, but it is really amazing what a big step this is for a new shooter -- even one who's spent a lifetime shooting on a "square range" or just plinking. It's a whole new world.

Then there is unconscious competence: This is where you really START to excel. When you are able to see an array of targets (or threats, or bad guys, or whatever) and can spend your conscious mental powers on figuring out maneuver, order, stage directions, and a strategy -- confident that drawing, presenting the gun, stance, balance, sights, trigger control, putting the right number of rounds on target, reloads, malfunction clearing, and all the technical aspects of "running" the gun are going to happen without conscious input.

Once you've gotten all that mechanical stuff beaten into your brain and "muscle memory", you free up your thinking power for actually solving the problem given.

When you've got that down, that's when you'll start moving up in the classifications.

 

[ny32182]

In a word, everything.

The amount of knowledge and skill improvement you can gain going from average gun owner/square range shooter to pushing yourself to be the best you can be in IDPA or other action competition can hardly be summed up in a forum posting...

 

[Resist Evil]

In answer to the original question of "What did you learn about handguns from IDPA or other competitions?," I can only say I am well-pleased that I was born after the year 1911.

 

[jmorris]

STI and SVI pistols are the best design for the games except for a few divisions. Glocks rule divisions that SV's and STI's don't.

#1 thing you must have is a gun that runs. If your gun, mag, ammo combination malfunctions you'll lose every match.

 

[DAP90]

...the finger tip should ideally touch the nose of the first round

That, I didn’t know.

 

[Sam1911]

So briefly, what did you learn?

Something else I'll share which I think takes this in a slightly different direction:

You CAN shoot in snow. You CAN shoot in blistering heat. You CAN shoot in a torrential downpour (for days at a time). You CAN shoot sick, tired, worn out, and even HURT. You CAN shoot in the dark. You will learn a whole lot more about yourself and your equipment and your own strengths if you do not accept excuses about why you don't feel like going to the match today.

When you've put $80+ into match fees, you just GO. When you've signed up to work as an SO at a 3-day event and a hurricane is marching up the coast, you just GO. You prepare as best as you can, you bring extra socks. Maybe pick up some hand warmers or some extra towels, a Gore-Tex jacket, or whatever you think might help, but then you just march out into it and go to work.

I've shot matches during which 8" of snow fell, and I'd had the flu all week, and the first solid food I'd kept down for days was a piece of muffin I bought on the way to the range. But when the guy in the kilt next to me didn't quit, I didn't either. (Though the supine-prone start stage did prove that he'd donned woolen boxers for the day! )

I've shot matches where folks were suffering from heat stress and the Staff was bringing water by the case.

I've shot a match one cold, overcast, drenching day where the first stage I faced was a prone stage and at the buzzer I dove onto a piece of carpet that had been collecting rain for hours, and I skinned both forearms and dripped bloody rainwater all over everything for the next few stages. But at least I was numb.

I've shot matches where the temps were in the teens and it blew 20-30mph all day (for two days) and it was hard to feel my hands. Good to know I can make the gun work anyway if I have to.

I've shot matches where the entire range -- every bay -- was awash in mud and where shooters were fishing in 12" soup to locate dropped magazines, then swishing them out "clean" in mud puddles before the next stage. Good to know the gun will still work even drenched and muddy.

I've shot one match after I'd dropped a large firewood log on a finger the day before and the pinky of my strong hand was swollen, purple, and wouldn't bend. Why? Well, how much do I know about my shooting, if I don't know how I'll shoot when something HURTS?

And it's not just me, either! I shoot with guys who've shown up on crutches, or with canes. Guys coming off knee surgery. Guys who puked after nearly every stage. Guys and ladies who grin and shiver and sweat and wring themselves out and just push on. It's inspiring.

Shooting matches just gets you out there facing conditions you would NEVER choose to, on days when there is no question in your mind that, left to your own devices, you'd be at home on the couch or still in bed. It leads you to a level of confidence that, "I can handle this. It's no big deal. I've been here before. Front sight -- press!"

 

[jmorris]

I forgot about revolvers. You can't say your a competitive revolver shooter if you don't own at least one 625 and a pair of Colts for SASS can cost as much as an SVI open pistol, or more.

 

[taliv]

which I think takes this in a slightly different direction:

(Though the supine-prone start stage did prove that he'd donned woolen boxers for the day! )

that's about enough of that direction!


seriously though, that's a good point. while it's not particularly pertinent to pistols, i have learned a lot shooting rifles in different areas of the country, and been surprised how different it is. I also take any chance I get to shoot in unusual weather conditions (snow, fog, hurricanes).

For example, you learn things like when shooting in the mud, if you have to get down and crawl or shoot from a low port in a barricade, use your forearms instead of your hands, because the mud (esp sticky clay in AL/GA or 'gumbo' in TX) will transfer from your hands to your magazines to your action and gum everything up.

and when there are puddles of water on the ground, brakes will throw water everywhere, but most of it will land on your eye pro

 

[DAP90]

You CAN shoot in snow. You CAN shoot in blistering heat. You CAN shoot in a torrential downpour (for days at a time). You CAN shoot sick, tired, worn out, and even HURT.

Snow and wind and bitter cold I’ve done while hunting. It’s harder and my shooting suffers but I’ve done it.

I shot in a trap league all spring and summer. Probably a third of the days it was windy and/or rainy for part of the evening. I can say that wind didn’t bother me that much. I missed when the target moved suddenly and erratically but mentally it didn’t affect me. Rain though – that’s another story. My scores plummeted in the rain.

 

[Sam1911]

My scores plummeted in the rain.

He who's scores plummet LEAST, wins!

I shot smallbore out at Camp Perry in '94. The storms that swept the line soaked everything. It was pretty funny/shocking to see guys tipping forward to let the rainwater pour out of the full-float channels of the stocks of their $3,000 Anschutz rifles.

On one stage we shot in the blowing rain until a gust took out 75% of the saturated targets on the line.

Whoever can keep focus and shut out all that extraneous fluff (like discomfort, cold, smudged eye pro., etc. will prevail against those who cannot!