Very recently, I had a firearm stolen. In the reporting of the crime I was of course asked where my gun was taken from, the standard things. Everyone was plenty nice until they asked about where I lived. I live on campus at a small university in Kentucky. After that, everyone became very uptight. While I'm at school, I conceal carry off campus as our school has a no firearm policy. To avoid this, I store my firearms in my vehicle to avoid any rule violation. To say the least, the Asst. Police Chief was not fond to hear this. He proceeded to tell me the law stated that any gun on school grounds was an automatic felony, and said he going to be nice and not arrest me for incriminating myself. While there is some truth to this statement, there are exceptions. I attempted to explain what I was clearly taught in my course work for my CCDW as well as individual research into our current state law. However, that made no difference. With Kentucky, post secondary school such as a university create their own firearm policies, and do not fall under the state laws. There have been some cases where it was ruled a school is a school, and in that event, with primary and secondary schools such as a high school, leaving a firearm secured in your vehicle while on the property is an exception to the law, allowing you to keep you firearm with you to some extent, and still be within the laws boundaries. Now, all that being said, it is clear to me and other who I spoken to, including our family attorney, that the police department do not fully understand the law. The problem is they have already arrested someone for being with in the bounds of it. Knowing that, i decided to disarm myself until things can be sorted out. So the major question is, what do I do about police who do not know the law they are sworn to uphold? I know that I can keep a gun in my car on campus legally with no issues, however, they do not. Frankly, I prefer to avoid being arrested for doing the right thing. Does anyone have any experience with this that would be of any use?
What do you do when police do not know the law?
- Thread starter mpc12
- Start date
- Status
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
I have no direct experience with such a situation.
But any good advice you receive is likely to start with either these words "Consult a good lawyer in the field" or these words "Consult your local grassroots organization."
But any good advice you receive is likely to start with either these words "Consult a good lawyer in the field" or these words "Consult your local grassroots organization."
scout26
Member
Print out a copy of the State Statutes and carry them with you.
That's what I do here in Illinois.
That's what I do here in Illinois.
El Tejon
Member
1. Be cool, be polite.
2. Do not argue.
3. As in chess anticipate the attack. Keep a photocopy of the statute, university regulation, inter alia in your glove box in an "Oh, Shucks" envelope.
4. Show it to them.
5. Wish them a nice day when they leave.
6. File administrative complaint with agency.
7. Have your attorney write or call city or university attorney and advise as to what happened.
8. Await response and see if further administrative, civil or political heat is necessary.
2. Do not argue.
3. As in chess anticipate the attack. Keep a photocopy of the statute, university regulation, inter alia in your glove box in an "Oh, Shucks" envelope.
4. Show it to them.
5. Wish them a nice day when they leave.
6. File administrative complaint with agency.
7. Have your attorney write or call city or university attorney and advise as to what happened.
8. Await response and see if further administrative, civil or political heat is necessary.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Don't get another gun stolen out of your trunk. Or, get an FFL so that you are required to inform the Fed Gov (ATF) of the theft from your inventory.
If it really was a felony, and you admitted it, why weren't you arrested?
Uh Hugh--smile politely. Shake his hand. You'll get no further.
Have the law clarified or changed if that is your conviction. People get itchy about guns on campus--just look at the goofiness going on in Utah right now.
You can now request a non-ccw roomate. TOO FUNNY! Back in the day it was smoking/non-smoking.
Enjoy school--and move OFF CAMPUS if you feel pressed in on and on someones radar.
If it really was a felony, and you admitted it, why weren't you arrested?
Uh Hugh--smile politely. Shake his hand. You'll get no further.
Have the law clarified or changed if that is your conviction. People get itchy about guns on campus--just look at the goofiness going on in Utah right now.
You can now request a non-ccw roomate. TOO FUNNY! Back in the day it was smoking/non-smoking.
Enjoy school--and move OFF CAMPUS if you feel pressed in on and on someones radar.
Sniper X
Member
A huge plus one on what El Tijon said, I had an incident happen where the police did not know the law about an area I was shooting in when they came out to arrest me for "shooting in a no shoot area". I was in the process of being arrested for this offense, when I pulled the no-shoot area map out of my wallet that I had made a copy of that past week, showed the police officers that we were standing in an area that was NOT designated as a no shoot area and after talking amongst themselves and looking very angry that they weren't ging to be able to make an arest, they handed back my firearm, zee papers, and the no shoot area map and said nothing, no apology and took off. It pays to be informed, and well armed with firearms, knowledge, and legal documentation.
you have to remember that most cops have just 60 college credits and none in criminal law, but if there's a doubt, they can arrest you and let the legal minds sort it out in court..
if it had been me, i would have shook his hand and got out of there soon as he said he wasn't gonig to arrest me for having a gun on school property,
i think there is a federal law against having any gun on any school property.
if it had been me, i would have shook his hand and got out of there soon as he said he wasn't gonig to arrest me for having a gun on school property,
i think there is a federal law against having any gun on any school property.
Educate them. When I hunt, carry, etc., I always carry a copy of the DNR rules, and the local state land maps. I have had to use these to educate both the DNR and county police more than once. In all instances, the officers were extremely pleasant. I have never ended up with any troubles.
When I travel out-of-state, I carry a copy of that state's rules for CCW as posted on their A.G.'s page Re: firearms carry, etc. Whatever the case, know the respective rules, policies and laws. Have copies available.
That does not mean that troubles will not happen. See my recent post about the Southfield, MI Police Dept. :banghead: Your best bet is educate the person respectfully.
When I travel out-of-state, I carry a copy of that state's rules for CCW as posted on their A.G.'s page Re: firearms carry, etc. Whatever the case, know the respective rules, policies and laws. Have copies available.
That does not mean that troubles will not happen. See my recent post about the Southfield, MI Police Dept. :banghead: Your best bet is educate the person respectfully.
SMMAssociates
Member
Here in OH, the law and the AG's booklet both fairly clearly indicate that we can leave a gun in our vehicles on campus. Doesn't seem to be any distinction made between private and public institutions.
I expect a private college could post "No Firearms" and get away with it, but it would have to be clearly indicated. It would also not be a Felony within the State-level restrictions. (IOW, carry into the building and you're a felon. Have one in the glovebox and it's a misdemeanor the first time.)
(IMHO/IANAL)
And YMMV....
And nonsense....
Regards,
I expect a private college could post "No Firearms" and get away with it, but it would have to be clearly indicated. It would also not be a Felony within the State-level restrictions. (IOW, carry into the building and you're a felon. Have one in the glovebox and it's a misdemeanor the first time.)
(IMHO/IANAL)
And YMMV....
And nonsense....
Regards,
VARifleman
Member
jeep-2, that federal law only applies to carrying a gun at or within 1000 feet of a k-12 school, not a university, and does not apply to CCW holders. As far as the feds are concerned, if you have a CCW, you can carry in any school.
And, from the packing.org site:
Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used Page 6 of 11 by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction.
---
It didn't mention schools at all, but does mention that schools and colleges have the power to restrict the presense of them on campus, however that would be a matter for the college disciplinary committee instead of the police.
And, from the packing.org site:
Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used Page 6 of 11 by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction.
---
It didn't mention schools at all, but does mention that schools and colleges have the power to restrict the presense of them on campus, however that would be a matter for the college disciplinary committee instead of the police.
Strings
Member
hey Doc: link please?
the law where i live
Weapons on Campus
1. Possession or keeping of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument on campus (including in any vehicle), or use of any object with intent to harm another, is prohibited. Deadly weapons or dangerous instruments include, but are not limited to, firearms, explosives, explosive devices, knives, blackjacks, chukka-sticks, sling shots, kung fu type weapons.
2. Possession or use of fireworks, firecrackers, etc., is also prohibited.
3. Possession of any CO-2 type firearm, spring-powered firearms, chemical aerosol spray, or pepper aerosol spray is also prohibited.
Violators of any section of this policy will be subject to possible criminal prosecution, if applicable, and appropriate disciplinary action from the College.
Weapons on Campus
1. Possession or keeping of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument on campus (including in any vehicle), or use of any object with intent to harm another, is prohibited. Deadly weapons or dangerous instruments include, but are not limited to, firearms, explosives, explosive devices, knives, blackjacks, chukka-sticks, sling shots, kung fu type weapons.
2. Possession or use of fireworks, firecrackers, etc., is also prohibited.
3. Possession of any CO-2 type firearm, spring-powered firearms, chemical aerosol spray, or pepper aerosol spray is also prohibited.
Violators of any section of this policy will be subject to possible criminal prosecution, if applicable, and appropriate disciplinary action from the College.
Thanks for all the quick responses, seems like everyone has similar ideas. To bring a little more clarity to the situation, the firearm was taken from my vehical while I was work, meaning not on campus.
Also, Jeep-2, where are you located?
In KY, our laws differentiate between K-12 and College Universities as well as provide ways to remain armed while at a K-12 Institution (meaning leaving the gun in the vehicle). Now as for my personal campus, we actually have no signs up anywhere on our campus to tell us no firearms or other concealed deadly weapons. However, it is in our by-laws that you cannot keep the in the dorms or carry them on campus. However, it doesn't say anything about vehicles as a violation. Also, given the rights given to CCDW holders to keep firearms in their cars on K-12 property and rights given to employees to keep firearms in their personal cars, you can expect similar treatment on a College Campus. Also, in KY we have had a precedent set in 96 on the UofL campus stating violation of the rules is not a criminal offence if I were in violation.
Also, Jeep-2, where are you located?
In KY, our laws differentiate between K-12 and College Universities as well as provide ways to remain armed while at a K-12 Institution (meaning leaving the gun in the vehicle). Now as for my personal campus, we actually have no signs up anywhere on our campus to tell us no firearms or other concealed deadly weapons. However, it is in our by-laws that you cannot keep the in the dorms or carry them on campus. However, it doesn't say anything about vehicles as a violation. Also, given the rights given to CCDW holders to keep firearms in their cars on K-12 property and rights given to employees to keep firearms in their personal cars, you can expect similar treatment on a College Campus. Also, in KY we have had a precedent set in 96 on the UofL campus stating violation of the rules is not a criminal offence if I were in violation.
You mention that you did research and spoke with an attorney already altho a family attorney might not be right on gun laws.
I think you should start trying to educate the Police Chief NOW - its much easier to do before the arrest. Think about it, no one likes to admit they were wrong escpecially in our litigious climate. Would you rather convince the police before or after you are arrested and spend one, two or more nights in lockup?
Since you mention you did the work and have an attorneys opinion send that to the Chief. Get more opinions but I wouldn't publisize it too much or someone will try to pass a law specifically against it.
I think you should start trying to educate the Police Chief NOW - its much easier to do before the arrest. Think about it, no one likes to admit they were wrong escpecially in our litigious climate. Would you rather convince the police before or after you are arrested and spend one, two or more nights in lockup?
Since you mention you did the work and have an attorneys opinion send that to the Chief. Get more opinions but I wouldn't publisize it too much or someone will try to pass a law specifically against it.
Manzanita
Member
I work at a "small university in Kentucky" and would be very interested to know where this took place.
The assistant police chief obviously needs to be educated on the Kentucky Revised Statutes concerning deadly weapons. You're right. Universities and post-secondary schools do not fall under the same rules as K-12 schools. Although it could get you expelled, and me fired, it certainly would not be a felony to be on a university campus with a firearm.
All the KRS's are online. The chapters relating to firearms are here. When you took your CCDW class (in Kentucky) you were probably given a printed copy. They're written in pretty plain language that even a small town police chief would probably understand.
Added: This is my first post. Hah! Been reading this forum so long I didn't realize I had never posted here...
The assistant police chief obviously needs to be educated on the Kentucky Revised Statutes concerning deadly weapons. You're right. Universities and post-secondary schools do not fall under the same rules as K-12 schools. Although it could get you expelled, and me fired, it certainly would not be a felony to be on a university campus with a firearm.
All the KRS's are online. The chapters relating to firearms are here. When you took your CCDW class (in Kentucky) you were probably given a printed copy. They're written in pretty plain language that even a small town police chief would probably understand.
Added: This is my first post. Hah! Been reading this forum so long I didn't realize I had never posted here...
Last edited:
"Would you rather convince the police before or after you are arrested and spend one, two or more nights in lockup?"
Another way to put that is whether to try to convince the police or let your attorney do it with a huge false arrest suit. If you have an attorney, and he feels it would be OK, let him talk to the chief; he is a neutral party and won't lose his cool if the police try to harass him.
Jim
Another way to put that is whether to try to convince the police or let your attorney do it with a huge false arrest suit. If you have an attorney, and he feels it would be OK, let him talk to the chief; he is a neutral party and won't lose his cool if the police try to harass him.
Jim
Strings:
What link do you need? I will check back either or tomorrow. Today is my first day going back to the office post-neurosurgery. Do you mean the link to my post about the Southfield MI and carrying "a pistol" versus carrying multiple pistols? If so, that is here:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=254555&highlight=Southfield
See posts #19 and #28 Re: my input.
Doc2005
What link do you need? I will check back either or tomorrow. Today is my first day going back to the office post-neurosurgery. Do you mean the link to my post about the Southfield MI and carrying "a pistol" versus carrying multiple pistols? If so, that is here:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=254555&highlight=Southfield
See posts #19 and #28 Re: my input.
Doc2005
Malum Prohibitum
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2006
- Messages
- 572
Ignorance Is Curable!
Send him a copy of the law!
Send him a copy of the law!
K-Romulus
Member
What these guys said (carry copy of the statute, etc.)
Police are like everyone else: if they are not interested in a subject, they won't know a lot about every single applicable regulation. Plus, there are usually so many laws they must enforce, it is impossible to remember or know the nuances of each and every one. For some LEO's, that's the magistrate's job after the arrest.
I admit I know nothing about powerboat regs here in MD.
One last thing: since the police chief has accused you of committing a felony, and graciously declined to pursue his belief, I advise you to at least talk to a criminal defense lawyer about your situation. Many initial consultations are either free or low-cost ($30/half hour). You will get a good idea of where you stand legally.
Police are like everyone else: if they are not interested in a subject, they won't know a lot about every single applicable regulation. Plus, there are usually so many laws they must enforce, it is impossible to remember or know the nuances of each and every one. For some LEO's, that's the magistrate's job after the arrest.
I admit I know nothing about powerboat regs here in MD.
One last thing: since the police chief has accused you of committing a felony, and graciously declined to pursue his belief, I advise you to at least talk to a criminal defense lawyer about your situation. Many initial consultations are either free or low-cost ($30/half hour). You will get a good idea of where you stand legally.
Mpc12,
If you can get this explained by a lawyer I would be very interested in what the answer to your dilemma is, as I have often been on university property in KY with a firearm in my vehicle. Kentucky regulations are quite friendly towards keeping a firearm in your privately owned automobile, even on K-12 school property. However, it appears that colleges, universities, etc. may have been awarded more latitude. A quick review of the Kentucky Revised Statutes finds this language in KRS 237.115:
Unfortunately, the language which disallows public or private property owners from forbidding weapons in rented or leased housing is located in KRS 237.110, as is the language protecting the keeping of firearms in vehicles from employer restrictions. KRS 527.020 contains language that exempts possession of firearms in the glove box from being considered concealed carry(edit: i.e. you can do this without permit), but this does not cover general possession. The good news from KRS 237.115:
So unless the federal law for schools includes universities as well, no criminal penalties may be attached, though you may be dismissed. I was under the impression that it didn’t, but then I am not a lawyer. I hope someone else can ring in here on this.
I am going to look into this question a little bit more when I get time to do so, in the mean time, if anyone else here can shed some more light on this situation as it relates to Kentucky, please do so.
If you can get this explained by a lawyer I would be very interested in what the answer to your dilemma is, as I have often been on university property in KY with a firearm in my vehicle. Kentucky regulations are quite friendly towards keeping a firearm in your privately owned automobile, even on K-12 school property. However, it appears that colleges, universities, etc. may have been awarded more latitude. A quick review of the Kentucky Revised Statutes finds this language in KRS 237.115:
Unfortunately, the language which disallows public or private property owners from forbidding weapons in rented or leased housing is located in KRS 237.110, as is the language protecting the keeping of firearms in vehicles from employer restrictions. KRS 527.020 contains language that exempts possession of firearms in the glove box from being considered concealed carry(edit: i.e. you can do this without permit), but this does not cover general possession. The good news from KRS 237.115:
So unless the federal law for schools includes universities as well, no criminal penalties may be attached, though you may be dismissed. I was under the impression that it didn’t, but then I am not a lawyer. I hope someone else can ring in here on this.
I am going to look into this question a little bit more when I get time to do so, in the mean time, if anyone else here can shed some more light on this situation as it relates to Kentucky, please do so.
Last edited:
VARifleman
Member
Knotthead, the federal "gun free" school zones act applied to k-12 schools and exempts CCW holders anyway, I have posted this earlier in the thread.
Smoke
Member
Thump them on the nose and loudly yell "What are you ....some kinda moron?"
Usually works. YMMV
Smoke
Usually works. YMMV
Smoke
- Status