What do you think you would have done? (Aggressive dog)

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I'm just curious about everyone's input on a particular experience I had last summer...

Story time:

I was up on a 14,000 peak on a sunny early-summer day in Colorado; it's my goal to climb all 58. It was during a weekday on a not-particularly-crowded peak (La Plata).

On the summit, an un-leashed young black lab snatched a bag of cheese and crackers out of my hand and ate the whole thing. It wasn't aggressive, but the dog clearly wasn't trained. I wasn't sure who the owners were so I didn't say anything about how stupid it was to have an untrained and un-leashed dog in an environment like that.

As I was coming down from the summit, my partner and I decided to glissade (slide) down a snowfield to avoid some uncomfortable down-climbing. about half way down, that same dog ran up from behind me, and began jumping over my legs and onto me. I wasn't sure if it was aggressive or not, so I stopped sliding and just sort of froze. As I turned around to see where the hell the owner was, the dog aggressively barked close to my face, and chomped my shoulder and quickly released (I was wearing about three dense layers, so no blood was drawn but I had half a dozen small bruises). The snow was steep and icy, and it declined sharply to the right so I would have felt extremely uncomfortable standing up. I was necessarily stuck in a compromised position. I drew my Leathaman from my pocket as quickly as possible in case the dog attacked with more conviction. Luckily, its owner began yelling and it rand back to him immediately after it attacked me, removing any necessity to consider defending myself. Still, I had no idea what the right course of action was...

What would you have done?

This event prompted me to obtain my CHP (not because I would have necessarily used said firearm, but because I realized that you just never know what can happen).

 

[yugorpk]

I would have shot the dog. The owner would have cried. Such is life.

You may not need a permit to carry in the wilds.

 

[Reloadron]

I own two dogs and we peaked at three. Just like my guns. With dog or gun ownership goes responsibility. In the situation you describe? I would have shot the dog by the second time around. Any dog approaches me in a threatening manner much like any person they run a very strong risk of getting shot. There is a reason we have a fully fenced yard and when we take the dogs to the park leashes are in the plan of the day. While neither of our dogs is aggressive nor do they act aggressive they are large enough to scare a person. A large dog becomes aggressive with me there is a very strong possibility I will shoot the dog. I will not wait for it to bite me. We love dogs but also believe an owner needs to be responsible. Now you try getting aggressive with any of my dogs on my property, inside my fence? Then I simple shoot you!

Ron

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I would have shot the dog. The owner would have cried. Such is life.

You may not need a permit to carry in the wilds.

Thanks for your input.

Had I carried, I would have been carrying openly anyway due to practicality. (As far as I'm concerned its not possible to carry concealed when hiking with a pack that requires support around the waste). I hadn't applied for my permit because I didn't feel quite ready yet to carry concealed or openly.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I will not wait for it to bite me.

I didn't think the dog was aggressive until it barked and instantly bit me; I've never owned a dog so I thought it was just being playful. I believe I would have used my knife in self defense if it had it continued to attack me.

A large dog becomes aggressive with me there is a very strong possibility I will shot the dog.

What if it its not really a "large" dog, but a medium-sized not-fully-grown lab? Probably still an adequate threat to justify DGU?

 

[Reloadron]

I didn't think the dog was aggressive until it barked and instantly bit me; I've never owned a dog so I thought it was just being playful. I believe I would have used my knife in self defense if it had it continued to attack me.



What if it its not really a "large" dog, but a medium-sized not-fully-grown lab? Probably still an adequate threat to justify DGU?

Actually you got me. If any dog becomes aggressive with me I will not hesitate to shoot the dog. Funny as when I posted that I noticed right away I typed shot rather than shoot and immediately changed it. You already quoted me. Not sure I would shoot an ankle biter but I consider 70 lbs and above large. Also, as to a lab or similar? You can generally tell if the dog is still puppy and puppy gets the benefit of the doubt. Puppy in many breeds runs till 18 months or some older. I think the key here is aggressive and biting. I can tell pretty early on if a dog is looking to bite. I guess it is a question of how long do you wait?

Ron

 

[figment]

Based on your description you did the right thing IMO.

BTW that's a cool goal you have. Its one of mine too.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Not sure I would shoot an ankle biter but I consider 70 lbs and above large. Also, as to a lab or similar? You can generally tell if the dog is still puppy and puppy gets the benefit of the doubt. Puppy in many breeds runs till 18 months or some older. I think the key here is aggressive and biting. I can tell pretty early on if a dog is looking to bite. I guess it is a question of how long do you wait?

I'd estimate the dog at around 45-50 lbs, so it definitely wasn't a puppy but it seemed to be young and not fully-grown. I think that, had I been carrying, I would have drawn after it bit me and chosen not to fire. I'm sure there are some who would argue against drawing a gun on a dog of that size (especially if it isn't immediately or clearly aggressive), and obviously there are those who would argue that I should have already had a gun drawn before the bite and fired as soon as I sensed aggression... That's why I posted this question. Thanks for your input!

Based on your description you did the right thing IMO.

BTW that's a cool goal you have. Its one of mine too.

thanks for the response! Good luck in your pursuit! I have completed 25 and hope to knock 10 or so off the list this summer.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I would have shot the dog, had pictures made of the bruises left by its teeth, and sued the owner.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I would have shot the dog, had pictures made of the bruises left by its teeth, and sued the owner.

Thanks for the response. Although defending myself from the dog wouldn't have been out of question, I definitely wouldn't spend any time or money on a lawsuit like that.

Also, one (probably important) thing I forgot to mention in my original post is that I didn't expect to walk away with any injuries from the bite; it didn't feel particularly painful due to adrenaline. I was pretty surprised to see significant bruising when I finally got home and took my shirt off.

 

[danez71]

Based on your description you did the right thing IMO.

BTW that's a cool goal you have. Its one of mine too.

I agree.


To the OP,

I don't believe the dog was being 'aggressive' in the sense it was going to attack.

It took your food and you said it wasn't aggressive.

As you were sliding down, you said it jumped over your legs... and on top of you. That's really not the signs of an attacking aggressive dog.

If it was trying to hurt you, you'd have been literally fighting the dog at that point as opposed to just wondering if it was aggressive.


It quickly bit and let go of your shoulder. Attacking dogs don't go after your shoulder when your face is right there and you're already on the ground. Face, hands, feet/legs, body (abdomen area) are all way up the list compared to 'shoulder'

And you said it ran off as soon as its owner called it..... that's not an aggressive untrained dog.

That's a untrained dog (owner) that wants to play but doesn't know the rules of playing yet.



You mentioned bruises. I have several on my arm from my dog. She likes to wrestle (and play ball). She is still puppy at 2 and will be for a while more.


I mention all of that because the OP isn't familiar with dogs' behavior.




I hate these kinds of threads because of things like this.

I would have shot the dog. The owner would have cried. Such is life.

If it happened as described, Id be on the side of putting you in jail. IMO, you have no justification to shoot that dog for those actions.


As its been discussed here many times, getting punched in your face once doesn't automatically justify retaliation with lethal force.



Im fine with shooting it if it was needed... but in this case, it was far from needed.

 

[matrem]

Unfortunately, I've been left with no choice but to be directly involved in several dog killings. Sure didn't ask for it, and it's never a good experience or memory.

Each 'dog' situation is different, and not to judge your situation, but it seems that one may have just been too rowdy an untrained pup and all the fault goes to the owners.

Hate to kill a dog because of the fault of the owners, but I have done it myself and certainly draw the line at any physical injury to myself or others.

 

[yugorpk]

If it happened as described, Id be on the side of putting you in jail. IMO, you have no justification to shoot that dog for those actions.


As its been discussed here many times, getting punched in your face once doesn't automatically justify retaliation with lethal force.



Im fine with shooting it if it was needed... but in this case, it was far from needed.

You'd put me in jail for shooting a dog that had attacked me? You have a private jail? You could cry to the police and I'd tell them I shot a dog that was attacking me because you didn't have control of your animal. I would never see a jail nor would a civil suit be fruitful for you. Might be for me though. I am not under any obligation to know your animals behavior and what he/she considers play. If I am out in the woods and any animal puts its mouth , or even bares its teeth and aggressively snarls at me or anyone in my party that will be the last thing it puts its mouth on or snarls at. It will be your fault. Not mine. Keep your dog under control if for no other reason being there are people out there who are armed who don't care about your relationship with your dog more than they do their own safety.

I have a dog and I have a leash for said dog. That works out well for everyone.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You'd put me in jail for shooting a dog that had attacked me? You have a private jail? You could cry to the police and I'd tell them I shot a dog that was attacking me because you didn't have control of your animal.

That's why I would get photographs of the bruise marks and sue. You never can tell how the dog's owner will react, and by the time you get home, you may find the police waiting for you.

So contact YOUR lawyer first and take his advice about suing.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Awesome response, danez71, thank you!

It quickly bit and let go of your shoulder. Attacking dogs don't go after your shoulder when your face is right there and you're already on the ground. Face, hands, feet/legs, body (abdomen area) are all way up the list compared to 'shoulder'

That's a untrained dog (owner) that wants to play but doesn't know the rules of playing yet.

I mention all of that because the OP isn't familiar with dogs' behavior.

I agree with that, although I had my arm raised in an attempt to distance the dog from my face. I believe it would have potentially bit my face- instead it got my deltoid/tricep (to be specific). I agree that it was playful at first and that I had no reason to consider defense until it barked/bit. Also, I'm taking the "just shoot the dog" responses with a grain of salt

Im fine with shooting it if it was needed... but in this case, it was far from needed.

Given the circumstances and size of the dog (45-50 lbs) if it had continued to be borderline aggressive by biting at me (but not full-on attacking) do you think DGU would have been necessary?

yugorpk

I am not under any obligation to know your animals behavior and what he/she considers play. If I am out in the woods and any animal puts its mouth , or even bares its teeth and aggressively snarls at me or anyone in my party that will be the last thing it puts its mouth on or snarls at.

I really agree with your statement that you aren't "under any obligation to know your animals behavior". I hate it when a dog freaks out and the owner defends the dog like "Oh, he's a really nice dog, he just doesn't like new people". As for snarling, I'd personally let it get to the point where a bite is imminent before I would consider DGU (unless of course its a wild animal). I'd be extra cautious not because I'd feel bad about shooting an aggressive animal, but because people are unpredictable when they see their dog get shot- its worth a bit of extra risk to avoid possibly escalating a situation like that.

 

[DanLee]

Labs are puppies until at least age 3. They are also fixated on food, hence the snatching of your lunch. The second encounter was play. I wouldn't have shot it. I might have taken a shot at the owner.

 

[sequins]

I was walking my dog in a suburban neighborhood one day when I suffered a similar fate to you, OP.

Untrained offleash dog charges myself and my own dog which I am walking on-leash, the unleashed dogs owner to his credit did run right after him to try and stop him (he opened fenced yard gate for mail, his dogs ran past him), he and I and the two dogs grappled for a brief time and I managed to gain control of his dog and he of mine. We backed the dogs to opposite sides of the street and started leading them back to his yard when suddenly the man's OTHER dog shows up!

Well, the newly arrived third dog didn't like how I was treating his pack-mate and started barking like crazy. I'm pretty riled at this point and the dog bites me once on the leg, it didn't clench or anything it was just an excited nip but it did draw blood. I didn't feel the blood at first and only realized after the incident had concluded when I felt a wet spot on my pants. I couldn't get my gun without releasing the dog I was holding, and I figured if the dog bit me again I'd have to shoot both... luckily it didn't bite me again and I wasn't forced to shoot, just had a tiny pinprick injury and all three dogs were fine. If I'd been nipped a second time I absolutely would have shot both, though.

I like dogs a lot and frankly I'd rather shoot a man than a pup, so I'd really rather wait until it's clearly trying to maul me before I kill it. Luckily it was just over-exitement by the dog and not a real threat in both our cases.

ED: I did not takes photos of a totally minor non-injury, I didn't threaten to sue, I didn't yell at the guy for an honest mistake; I've cut myself worse in the kitchen... Lawsuits for slip and fall shenanigans like this are why our country is in the toilet. If you want money go get a job, not a lawyer. I bet his dogs were a part of his family and killing them would have broken his kids hearts, and if I'd sued I'd just be taking their college money. Shooting dogs and suing people the first chance you get is downright monstrous behaviour, certainly not high road.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

DanLee

The second encounter was play. I wouldn't have shot it. I might have taken a shot at the owner.

Stupid question, but doesn't the bark make it aggressive as opposed to play?

Haha as for shooting at the owner, he caught up with me afterwards and was very apologetic (I was a bit p---ed so I decided to keep on descending [if this happened again I'd be more prepared to talk with him immediately following the incident]). I VERY firmly informed him that he was breaking the law by having an un-leashed dog in a the Collegiate Peaks Wilderness area (which is true, leash your dogs people!) and that he needs to be responsible for taking care of his animal because given its behavior it could easily get hurt or killed in that environment (by people defending themselves or it just running off a cliff or something).

 

[danez71]

You'd put me in jail for shooting a dog that had attacked me? You have a private jail? You could cry to the police and I'd tell them I shot a dog that was attacking me because you didn't have control of your animal. I would never see a jail nor would a civil suit be fruitful for you. Might be for me though. I am not under any obligation to know your animals behavior and what he/she considers play. If I am out in the woods and any animal puts its mouth , or even bares its teeth and aggressively snarls at me or anyone in my party that will be the last thing it puts its mouth on or snarls at. It will be your fault. Not mine. Keep your dog under control if for no other reason being there are people out there who are armed who don't care about your relationship with your dog more than they do their own safety.

I have a dog and I have a leash for said dog. That works out well for everyone.

The dog didn't attack (of course that's my opinion and you have yours, that's fair). I'd bet that you wont find much credible support from experts that the actions of the dog indicated it was "attacking".


But you DO have an obligation to know whats considered justifiable. A single punch doesnt constitute it and neither does some bruising on a shoulder. That's been discussed here countless times.


Agreed about the leash. It P's me off when I see people walking their dogs with out a lease.... and I like dogs.

That's why I would get photographs of the bruise marks and sue. You never can tell how the dog's owner will react, and by the time you get home, you may find the police waiting for you.

So contact YOUR lawyer first and take his advice about suing.

Sueing the owner...?? Sure! Go for it. Not sure what you get in compensation but 'go for it'. Dang owners need to keep their dogs on leases. Maybe that will teach the owner.

 

[Llama Bob]

Given a choice I'd rather not shoot a dog that bit me, because I like dogs, but I certainly would do it. And despite the internet being a fabulous source of legal advice, I'm quite certain that it would result in neither criminal nor civil liability in a situation like this.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Thanks for the story, sequins.

Wow, although your situation sounds scarier than mine, it is very similar. I think I'm starting to conclude that an imminent mauling needs to be necessary before defense against a dog is justifiable to me. If something like this happens again in the future I think I'll give the dog the benefit of the doubt when it comes to unpredictable behavior, but I'll certainly consider quickly drawing a firearm should the situation escalate.

.

 

[Black Knight]

Don't get me wrong, I love dogs. Most dog problems can be traced to the owner. I have a neighbor with 2 problem dogs. a large hound and a very large Doberman. Neither have been socialized with the neighbors or even obedience trained. The neighbor has a 3 and a half foot wooden fence and believes that her dogs could never clear that fence. She is a college educated Democrat eco nut that runs her own green cleaning service, a complete airhead. I have told my wife that should they jump that fence and sink teeth she won't have that dog anymore. I don't want to kill one but when they draw blood then it is time to take serious action. She can do whatever she wants after that but the teeth marks in my arm will be good evidence in court and I have no problem taking her home from her.

 

[FL-NC]

Kick the poo out of the dog (or smack it upside the head) the first time it was a problem. tell the owner to control it. Be prepared to up the ante on either the dog or owner. Move on.

 

[musher]

But you DO have an obligation to know whats considered justifiable. A single punch doesnt constitute it and neither does some bruising on a shoulder. That's been discussed here countless times.

You seem to be confused. dog <> person. You can legitimately shoot a dog in a lot of cases where shooting a person would not be appropriate.

For example, shooting a dog in your chicken coop is fine. Shooting the neighbor in your chicken coop is not ok--even if he's eating your chickens on the spot.

If an animal bites a human, the human can put animal down. No question about it.

 

[danez71]

Awesome response, danez71, thank you!



I agree with that, although I had my arm raised in an attempt to distance the dog from my face. I believe it would have potentially bit my face- instead it got my deltoid/tricep (to be specific). I agree that it was playful at first and that I had no reason to consider defense until it barked/bit. Also, I'm taking the "just shoot the dog" responses with a grain of salt



Given the circumstances and size of the dog (45-50 lbs) if it had continued to be borderline aggressive by biting at me (but not full-on attacking) do you think DGU would have been necessary?

yugorpk



I really agree with your statement that you aren't "under any obligation to know your animals behavior". I hate it when a dog freaks out and the owner defends the dog like "Oh, he's a really nice dog, he just doesn't like new people". As for snarling, I'd personally let it get to the point where a bite is imminent before I would consider DGU (unless of course its a wild animal). I'd be extra cautious not because I'd feel bad about shooting an aggressive animal, but because people are unpredictable when they see their dog get shot- its worth a bit of extra risk to avoid possibly escalating a situation like that.

Its hard to say but at some point, Yes, I believe shooting it could be justifiable.

Watch a couple you-tube videos just to get familiar. You'll know when a dog IS attacking. There is no mistaking it.

One thing to try to keep in mind if you are attacked..... FIGHT BACK!!! Hurt that dog. Be aggressive back... don't shy away. Keep focused and go on the offense. Don't just defend yourself.... attack the dog.

It doesn't have fists and hands... cant kick you.... you have the advantage. Even if it bites you, you have 1-2 free hands.

I got in the middle of a dog fight before. My dog and some shepard mix about 50 lbs. The dog did bite me on the wrist/arm (drew blood) and I was able to grab the dog by both sides of its neck (the fur mainly) and literally picked up the dog by the fur of its neck.

As the dog was thrashing about trying to bite me and/or get away, I stormed over to the owner and shoved his thrashing dog into his chest.

I'm not afraid of dogs. I was only about 14 at the time.


If the dog kept snapping/nipping at me,,,, he's testing me. Sizing me up. Id have no problem kicking or punch it in the chops (depending on my position)

If it lunged at me, Id take the next action.

Personally, it would take a lot for me to shoot a dog because, seriously, I out weigh it by over 100lbs. I have way better limbs... way stronger...and I have opposable thumbs.... and a brain at least 2x smarter than a dog.

But thats not to say shooting one is never justifiable.


You mentioned not knowing how people react when there dogs get harmed.

I cant stress enough that you should read this link about Harold Fish. He went to jail for 3 yrs before he got his 10 yr conviction overturned. It all started with dogs on a nature hike not on a lease.

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266

DanLee



Stupid question, but doesn't the bark make it aggressive as opposed to play?

Haha as for shooting at the owner, he caught up with me afterwards and was very apologetic (I was a bit p---ed so I decided to keep on descending [if this happened again I'd be more prepared to talk with him immediately following the incident]). I VERY firmly informed him that he was breaking the law by having an un-leashed dog in a the Collegiate Peaks Wilderness area (which is true, leash your dogs people!) and that he needs to be responsible for taking care of his animal because given its behavior it could easily get hurt or killed in that environment (by people defending themselves or it just running off a cliff or something).

Yes and No. Barking is being agitated.

It could be agitated enough to attack something.... or it could be only agitated that the cable tv installer is next door and it doesn't like time warner.


But body language is the easiest to tell for you, IMO. Barking and pacing back and forth could be agitated or just anxious and doesn't know what it should do.

Try to remember that last time you fought in school. You locked eyes... size each other up... and get your posture ready to rumble.

A dog will get into 'the read position' to attack or fight. Hunched a little... deep growling.... eyes locked on your eyes.... not pacing but mostly still.... and focused on you like there isn't anything else around.


You wont be wondering if a dog attacks, that's for sure.