What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'?

[TheeBadOne]

mr rat rippers

I think what you are missing is the very simple point mr rat was making. Bad guys don't have a tattoo on their forhead or wear shirts that say "I will kill you for food". Bad guys look just like you and me, and mom and dad and brother and sister. Hollywood makes it easy, within 1 second of seeing the badguy on screen you know who he is, but that's Hollywood. You never know who you're dealing with. There was a separate thread about the cops who got shot with their own guns at a fast food joint after getting called to a lovers spat. The "bad guy" was very reasonable from the start, and the call was over, all walking away, when the bad guy (it was later found out he was a very bad guy) attacked without warning.

 

[ojibweindian]

Wrong. The problem is that the cops dealt with this situation in a "Zero Tolerance" manner, which we all know is devoid of common sense.

What makes it worse is that there was no substantial evidence that necessitated this kind of treatment.

No, you never know what you're dealing with. But you know what? That's part of the job. If you can't take it, quit.

 

[TreeSquid]

I agree with everyone who said the cop was just doing his job, and he should have blown that dog away. Because what we REALLY need in America is a rivalry between innocent citizens and loose cannons in law enforcement who will not hesitate to fire at the slightest provocation, even when, like in this case, there doesn't seem to be ANY provocation at all. Yes, deathly fear of those who are supposed to protect you is the true path to the american dream! That officer either needs to be stripped of his badge and never allowed to work LE again, or all police dogs acting "threatening" (tail wagging, bouncing around) are fair game for any timid soul. After all, if a family with their dog in a station wagon who lost a wallet are horrible people who need to be treated like criminals and fired upon, then surely a man dressed all in black with a gun and an attack dog is certainly a threat! "TO SERVE AND PROTECT." Not "TO SUBJUGATE AND ABUSE, AND THEN MAKE EXCUSES INSTEAD OF ADMITTING OBVIOUS ERROR."

This incident inflames me to no end. After watching that video, I think that there is absolutely no excuse, NONE, for what happened. Either the felony stop, or the officers' blatant disregard for common sense, respect, or even simple observation. These poor people were traumatized for doing NOTHING but cooperating. If something very serious doesn't in happen to that officer, or possibly the whole department, over that situation, it will be a sad harbinger of things to come.

 

[Zander]

Spare me the condescension, please. -- Zander

Yet you post... -- TheeBadOne

Don't confuse condescension with contempt.

 

[DeltaElite]

Zander,
I hope you feel better now that you got to go after me.
You sure have alot of resentment over things that you have no direct knowledge of.
BTW, name calling is sooooooooo mature.

Edited at the request of a higher authority........

 

[riverdog]

It really is unfortunate that the dog had to die in this situation, but that's what happens when Law Enforcement as a routine feels it necessary to take complete control over ordinary law abiding citizens in order to conduct what should have been a routine investigative stop -- no way should this have been considered a High Risk stop. But now the dog is dead and law enforcement has lost even more respect in the process.

There's a ongoing thread that asks what you think of when you see a LEO. How about: "I wonder whether he's part of the BAD 1% or one of the 99% that enables the 1% to get away with it?" LE needs to address this problem now because it will only get worse and law abiding citizens will start demanding politicos fix the problem.

I'm still not sure using Officer Hall as the scapegoat is the right thing to do; there is plenty of blame for this incident within the THP that goes way beyond a dog being shot. The person or persons who put this out as a felony stop put the lives of innocent civilians at unnecessarily risk. That in my eyes is criminal conduct.

The fact or excuse that it was only a dog should never be uttered by a LEO. LE killed that dog needlessly. Whether or not Officer Hall acted properly in the moment is irrelevant. The dog's death was not necessary.

 

[jsalcedo]

About 5 years ago in San Antonio a cop was videotaped
bashing in the head of a small poodle mix dog that was tied
to a tree outside of a residence where they were serving a warrant.

The dog weighed less than 15 Lbs and was barking but was
secured and about 10 feet from where the officers were
conducting their business. The taped showed an officer picking
up a shovel he found leaning up against the house and proceded
to repeatedly bash the dogs brains in.

The news ran the story for about a day and a half and then
stated the officer felt threatened and no charges were being filed.

Is this typical?

I am a law abiding citizen and CCW license holder and I have been abused by city cops about every other time I come in contact with one. For no reason other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time I have been screamed at, cursed, threatened, shoved and harassed.

The state police on the other hand have been polite, courteous
professional and calm on the occasions where I have had a tail light out or was speeding.

Is there a difference in training between city and state agencies?

 

[HS/LD]

The dog is shot. Sad and unfortunate. Sounds like the cop was not necessarily a Nazi but a bit of an idiot.
What concerns me is that this sort of thing happens to 'we the people'. No-knock raids and such.

I agree to some extent with the original argument of this post.

While I have family in LE and I support my local LEOs 100% (until they do something to warrant removing this placement of trust). I am a little alarmed at the disposition towards turning LE units into their military equivalent.

There is a law that forbids the government from using the military against 'we the people', right? It seems the expedient answer is to simple equip the LE units like military units and train them like military units… now for all intents and purposes they are military units. Right?

I have never been a LEO and never will be. However I have served in the military and I have a sibling that serves and protects civilians as an LEO. The training should be different the tactics should be different, the mindset especially, should be VERY different.

If you take a police force and equip them like the military. Train them like the military; have them use the tactics and mindset of the military. Haven't you just got a military unit? Are we not then creating a perfect environment to start a war?

Why do I even have to worry about a no-knock raid on my home (when I am a law-abiding non-citizen)? I can understand being detained when I am a dead-ringer for a suspect in a crime. I would also expect a ride home and a “Our sincere apologies for inconveniencing you Mr. HS/LD.†When the matter is cleared up.

The problem is the mindset is wrong.

Why in a country like New Zealand (where there are more firearms per capita than the US) do the LEOs not even carry sidearms? (At the moment ) How would have this particular situation have been handled there? Would the dog have been shot, or would the officer have realized that not all situations should be solved with a shotgun and simply closed the door to the car?

I think people, as evidenced by this thread, are not anti-LEO. They are simply fed up with being afraid of the aggressive and antagonistic behavior they see every day. You would then say the LEOs see aggressive and antagonistic behavior everyday too, and that they are FED UP. Well, THAT IS THEIR JOB!! That is what they chose to do!!

Do I like seeing the Deputy’s cruiser in my neighborhood? Yes.
Am I afraid of the LEOs? Yes.
Have I EVER had contact with the police in regard to the commission of a crime? NEVER. (Oh except that one speeding ticket, which was dismissed BTW ).

So why am I afraid?
I am afraid that one day some idiot will do the same thing to me.
Shoot my dog!
Shoot my wife!
Or forget to knock before erroneously kicking down my door, and shoot me!
The LEO and I should be on the same side: We should both be thinking about protecting ME!

Regards,
HS/LD

If you look at my signature line you will see that this particular matter has concerned 'the people' for a long long time.
Who Watches the Watchmen?
Quis Custodiet ipsos Custodes

 

[Dennis Olson]

It tells me that the car passengers should have closed the car doors, in which case the incident would not have occurred. There is more than enough blame to go around...

 

[HS/LD]

Dennis Olson:

In a felony stop you are not given the opportunity to close the car doors.

Blame rest squarely on one set of shoulders here.

HS/LD

 

[riverdog]

The driver and passengers should never have had to leave the car.

 

[Phyphor]

Dennis said: "It tells me that the car passengers should have closed the car doors, in which case the incident would not have occurred. There is more than enough blame to go around...
"

And get shot by the cops for disobeying orders?

 

[Zander]

I hope you feel better now that you got to go after me. -- DeltaElite

Oh, please...don't flatter yourself. I didn't "go after you", I asked you some very pointed questions.

You didn't answer a single one. Why?

You sure have alot of resentment over things that you have no direct knowledge of.

Where did you say you worked? Still waiting on you to provide us with your knowledge of THP policy and procedure, too. Personally, I don't think you have a clue.

BTW, name calling is sooooooooo mature.

I call him Officer Goober to express my contempt for his meddling. His "help" wasn't needed, wasn't requested and he shouldn't have been on-scene. Even you recognize this...and his motivation for being where he shouldn't have been.

He precipitated an ugly incident and has put his department, his city and his state at civil risk. And furthered the notion that certain small-town officers are ill-trained wannabes who can't resist hanging around and getting in the way of more professional officers doing their jobs.

Who am I to argue?

Zander needs a hug.

Thanks...but you don't seem like my type.

 

[DeltaElite]

Zander,
It doesn't matter where I work, do you work for THP?
Are you associated with Le in any way?

I got my answers in PM, so nevermind.

So what was the gist of this thread anyway?

 

[Bostonterrier97]

The Dog in the Video was exhibiting Body Language which showed that it was EXCITED, HAPPY and PLAYFUL

Here is the full video Smoak Car Stop

Notice how the Dog Bounds out of the Car, runs around in a Circle, is holding its Tail UP AND WAGGING!

Here is a small list of common canine body language, the definitions, and how to react to them:

1. Your dog is greeting you, but showing his front teeth. His tail is wagging slowly.

Definition: Your dog is happy to see you but also showing you submission. Crouch down to his level and greet him enthusiastically. This will prevent him from Trying to jump on you
2. Your dog is looking at another dog, his ears perked forward, eyes staring, tail wagging, fur slightly raised along his shoulders.

Definition: He wants to go greet the other dog, but is a bit afraid. Should you restrain him by pulling his neck collar, this behavior can turn into aggression toward the other dog. Your dog needs more time to interact with others of his own species.
3. Your dog has a habit of staring directly into your eyes or those of other family members.

Definition: This is called the Alpha Stare. It's a means of showing dominance. Never look away first. Looking away first makes you appear submissive to your dog. However, if you are being stared at by a strange dog in his yard, look away and slowly back out of his yard. Not heeding his warning can be dangerous.
4. Your dog is greeted by another dog who is prancing around him, tail up, ears forward, neck arched, and eyes staring.

Definition: This other dog is showing dominance to your dog. Provided your dog remains submissive (i.e. keeps a low profile and does not stare back), things will be fine. However, if your dog is not a submissive type, break off the interaction by calling him to come to you, and walking away.
5. Your dog is showing the sides of his teeth with a curled lip.

Definition: This is a sign of aggression. It is currently a warning which, if not heeded, will turn into a bite. This should never be allowed to happen with your own pet. Seek the help of a professional trainer immediately.
6. Your dog is panting lightly, ears swiveling or held at the side. His tail is still.

Definition: Your dog is relaxed/happy.
These are but a few canine body language communications. To fully understand canine body language there are several books available that can help. However, the best means of learning what your dog is telling you is through observation and an open mind. Anthropomorphizing will not help you understand anything. Canines do not think in the same manner as humans.

Dogs may also display puppy-like behaviour towards humans, as they perceive us as superiors. In the same way that a puppy licks its mothers face to beg for food or grooming, an adult dog reaches or jumps up to lick its owner's face.

CURIOUS/EAGER/EXCITED
• Perked-up ears pointing forward
• Wide eyes
• Slightly open mouth
• Excited panting
• Dog may wiggle or prance a little
• Tail is up and wagging
• Whines or barks excitedly.

PLAYFUL/HAPPY
• Ears perked forward
• Sparkly, merry eyes
• Relaxed mouth, slightly open with teeth covered
• Excited panting
• Relaxed body, with their front end lower to the
ground than their rear
• Dog may bounce, jump, circle or run back and
forth
• Wagging tail
• Barking, and perhaps a bit of mock-ferocious
growling.


Note the LAST 3 points...Bounce,Jump circle or run back and forth; Wagging Tail; Barking and/or Mock-Ferocious Growling

 

[Cal4D4]

Well said Bostonterrier97, if only we could predict LEO demeanor so easily while we were still in our cars.

 

[riverdog]

Excellent post. Some of us learned how to read these expressions as kids and we never knew why. Maybe that's why some of us don't have problems understanding canines.

 

[Erik]

Felony stop:

Cops are supposed to be occupied with human occupants, and what they may or may not be doing.

Dogs had best stay put, lest out of the corner of the cops eye movement be construed as aggressive, in which case one of the acceptable drills is 'BOOM' then back to what they are supposed to be occupied with as outlined above.

Of course every situation is different, and not everyone reacts the same way, regardless.

---

Every cop I know, and I know quite a few, are trained not to consider pepper spray a viable canine alternative.

Transition from a longarm to a collapsable baton in a similar scenario? No thanks. Though I might not chose to shoot, depending on my own split second decision. Of course maybe I would.

---

All in all and regardless, a regretable situation.

 

[Zander]

Dogs had best stay put, lest out of the corner of the cops eye movement be construed as aggressive, in which case one of the acceptable drills is 'BOOM' then back to what they are supposed to be occupied with as outlined above. -- Erik

Do you have any conception of how silly this contention is?

It's simply unconnected with reality...and I don't give a damn what your training is.

Except to say that your training is likely faulty in the extreme. It distresses me greatly that anyone with such a mindset is carrying a badge and a firearm under color of law.

I'd suggest some remedial training; your mission is to serve and protect those who pay your salary. If you disagree, turn in your badge.

Supposing that you are, of course, a sworn officer.

You are, aren't you?

 

[ojibweindian]

Let's try this, Erik.

A police officer, upon detaining me in some fashion, had better quicly present appropriate, irrefutable identification and state the nature of his buisiness lest his actions be interpreted as those of an imposter attempting to harm me, in which case the necessary level of force needed to stop the percieved threat immediately and irrevocably is employed.

 

[Preacherman]

Friends, we've had endless discussions about this case over the past few days - discussions that are, by now, generating more heat than light. There have been no new facts apart from the video footage. We still don't know the background to the whole affair from the initial 911 call, through various departments and dispatchers, to the officers who executed the felony stop. It's time to stop playing armchair quarterback, and long past time to stop conducting a "trial by media". Please sit back, relax, and let the legal system run its course. I do believe that with so high-profile a case, justice will indeed be served - by now, it's impossible to sweep things under the carpet any more!

Let's leave this to the legal profession to sort out. Thread closed.