What else besides AK/AR/SKS/Mini?
- Thread starter Jim PHL
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FightingWombat
Member
I've always liked the AR-180B takes AR mags seems real nice has after-market for it. Also the SU-16 series.
woodfiend
Member
What might you think of an AK-74 clone? They can be bought for cheaper than an AR, but the ammo is $139 for 1,080 rounds on Aimsurplus. Magazines are easy to find, and are cheap. Commonality of parts is also a plus, and with this you will have it. I've been wanting one of these for myself....
Exposure
Member
Uhhhhh...... If your Bushmaster has NEVER jammed then how do you know good magazines from bad ones? A fighting rifle should use any magazine you put into it shouldn't it?
Mini mags are hard to find? I don't think so, they may not be cheap but they can be found very easily.
The AR is designed to be a fighting rifle??? Try to disassemble the bolt on one when your fingers are nearly frozen and the only light available is coming from the moon. I am not saying the Mini is better is this regard but the AR has several small parts that can easily disappear when you are not sitting at the comfort of your kitchen table, and these are parts that Uncle Sam tells you to strip out in your basic field maintenance, ask me how I know this.
Now think of an AK or SKS in the same situation. They can pulled apart and cleaned with freakin gloves on. Drop an AR in the mud a few times and see if it still goes bang, now do the same with an AK.
Sorry but the AR and the Mini are compromises at best. And I am saying this as someone who owns both. But I will tell you straight out that the AR is NOT the be all and end all of military weapons. Is it superior to the Mini? In terms of accuracy yes, reliability, no.
I am sure this post will ruffle a few feathers.
woodfiend
Member
Any semi-automatic rifle will jam if you are feeding it poorly made magazines. The ONLY time my rifle has given me trouble is when I DIDN'T clean it, or oil it, and used a magazine with one of those crappy black followers that will tilt backward/forwards/any which way. Since I've replaced all of my magzine's followers with Magpuls, I haven't had one hiccup whatsoever. Additionally, 95% of the ammo I feed my rifle with is WOLF.
woodfiend
Member
Anyone who offers their advice that the AR15/M16/M4 is not a fighting rifle, needs to read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden and Lone Survivor by Marcus Luttrell. In Lone Survivor, 4 SEALS slay about 150-200 Taliban warriors in a battle. What were they using? 2 M4s, and 2 Mk. 12's. Gas impingement, and everything bad the AR has.
Exposure
Member
So you admit that you have had problems with your AR? Can you always clean, oil, and find the best magazines when you are fighting with your rifle? No infantryman should have to go to the incredible trouble of checking, then finding a new follower for every magazine they have just so that they can make their rifle reliable! The weapon should go BANG as issued. I stand by what I said. The AR15/M16 platform is a compromise.
As far as the Black Hawk Down, Lone Survivor books go, I have read them both. I have not said that the AR platform was NOT lethal. Just that is was not the most reliable. Those are incredible stories but neither one is about how awesome the AR platform is.
BOTH of those stories are about how AMAZING the American soldier is. Please don't try to turn either one into an "AR is the best rifle ever!" thread.
For absolute, awesome, always go bang battle rifles, you need to look at, in no particular order:
Springfield 03
Garand
AK47
Mauser's
Enfields
Mosin's
Elgin47
Member
+1 on what Exposure said -
We can - and should, because positive, constructive debate always presents an opportunity to learn something - argue the relative strengths and weaknesses of various firearms and their applications.
But - though I've been around awhile and have spent well over 50 years shooting a bunch of guns of nearly every type - I suspect that under almost any circumstances a younger, well-trained, combat-experienced soldier using a single-shot .22 will probably kill me before I can do him in with the best AR/AK/Mini/Whatever money can buy.
Again, I agree with Exposure - whether hunting, recreation, competition or combat - having the appropriate weapon is important, but the shooter is the critical element in the ol' success vs. failure equation.
That said and back on topic (sorry) I have three Mini-14s that have been utterly reliable with both factory 20 rd. and Pro-Mag steel 20 & 30 rd. magazines so I'm partial to the Mini - but I am looking for the "right" AR (I know, I know, but I'm also still looking for that '67 427 Vette under a tarp in the barn....)
We can - and should, because positive, constructive debate always presents an opportunity to learn something - argue the relative strengths and weaknesses of various firearms and their applications.
But - though I've been around awhile and have spent well over 50 years shooting a bunch of guns of nearly every type - I suspect that under almost any circumstances a younger, well-trained, combat-experienced soldier using a single-shot .22 will probably kill me before I can do him in with the best AR/AK/Mini/Whatever money can buy.
Again, I agree with Exposure - whether hunting, recreation, competition or combat - having the appropriate weapon is important, but the shooter is the critical element in the ol' success vs. failure equation.
That said and back on topic (sorry) I have three Mini-14s that have been utterly reliable with both factory 20 rd. and Pro-Mag steel 20 & 30 rd. magazines so I'm partial to the Mini - but I am looking for the "right" AR (I know, I know, but I'm also still looking for that '67 427 Vette under a tarp in the barn....)
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Maverick223
Member
Yep...uh huh
I like ARs, but I don't know of another rifle as picky about the mag you feed it. The mini is based (kind of loosely) on the proven M14, reliability is pretty good, and I would argue that in some ways the durability (not reliability) rivals the AK.
The AR is definately the most accurate of the few mentioned, however the AK-74 has decent accuracy, is 100% reliable, and a few (thousand) 
readily available aftermarket parts and accessories.
...Amen
I like ARs, but I don't know of another rifle as picky about the mag you feed it. The mini is based (kind of loosely) on the proven M14, reliability is pretty good, and I would argue that in some ways the durability (not reliability) rivals the AK.
The AR is definately the most accurate of the few mentioned, however the AK-74 has decent accuracy, is 100% reliable, and a few (thousand) readily available aftermarket parts and accessories.stubbicatt
Member
HK makes some really fine rifles. There are clone manufacturers too. I love my Vector 93, which is 223 caliber, and does anything I ask of it.
Once I got the bugs worked out of it, it has been as reliable as a P38 can opener, and will shoot quite accurately. At least it shoots very accurately for my girlfriend, who put 10 shots in just over an inch from prone with a scope mounted on it.
The down side, and it is a down side, is that the magazines for the rifle are quite dear. They are superb magazines with a very sturdy feedbox and excellent construction. IMO they are worth the price. Just that if you lose one of these magazines you feel like you should make a claim on your homeowner's insurance or something!
Once I got the bugs worked out of it, it has been as reliable as a P38 can opener, and will shoot quite accurately. At least it shoots very accurately for my girlfriend, who put 10 shots in just over an inch from prone with a scope mounted on it.
The down side, and it is a down side, is that the magazines for the rifle are quite dear. They are superb magazines with a very sturdy feedbox and excellent construction. IMO they are worth the price. Just that if you lose one of these magazines you feel like you should make a claim on your homeowner's insurance or something!
Jim PHL
Member
quote: "Why are you avoiding AK's, AR's, and SKS's??"
Rocky; I am not necessarily avoiding them. (Right now leaning towards an SKS because $$$ seems to be trumping most other issues.) It's just that most posts/threads here and on other boards seem to narrow everything down to those four -admittedly most popular and probably for good reason- platforms. Again I am not and probably will not become a 'rifle-guy'. Just trying to take advantage of the rest of your collective experience.
The 7.62x39 and .223 seem to make the most sense for caliber due to price and availability. AK's and AR's and Mini's have these calibers in their favor and also commonality and availability of magazines. Obviously SKS with fixed mags loadable by strippers or by the round have a similar advantage. The AK/AR/SKS have plentiful and cheap parts, both OEM and aftermarket. All four of these also have common knowledge/experience among the shooting community. These are a few of the features/benefits that make choosing one of these four make sense. Especially for someone not going to be "into" rifles. (Kind of like how it makes sense for people not "into" handguns to stick with a good solid .38/.357 revolver.)
So again, my question is along the lines of 'aside from these four models, is there a semi-auto rifle equivalent of a S+W Model 10?'
Rocky; I am not necessarily avoiding them. (Right now leaning towards an SKS because $$$ seems to be trumping most other issues.) It's just that most posts/threads here and on other boards seem to narrow everything down to those four -admittedly most popular and probably for good reason- platforms. Again I am not and probably will not become a 'rifle-guy'. Just trying to take advantage of the rest of your collective experience.
The 7.62x39 and .223 seem to make the most sense for caliber due to price and availability. AK's and AR's and Mini's have these calibers in their favor and also commonality and availability of magazines. Obviously SKS with fixed mags loadable by strippers or by the round have a similar advantage. The AK/AR/SKS have plentiful and cheap parts, both OEM and aftermarket. All four of these also have common knowledge/experience among the shooting community. These are a few of the features/benefits that make choosing one of these four make sense. Especially for someone not going to be "into" rifles. (Kind of like how it makes sense for people not "into" handguns to stick with a good solid .38/.357 revolver.)
So again, my question is along the lines of 'aside from these four models, is there a semi-auto rifle equivalent of a S+W Model 10?'
Maverick223
Member
M1 Carbine?
Although I like the M1 Carbine, I don't feel that the rifle fits the bill. A Universal is made very poorly, and a decent M1 is in the $800.00 range. However, they are excellent, rugged firearms, and like the mini are designed like the M1 Garand/M14 series of battle rifles. Also the round is sufficient to hunt with in NA and reasonably cheap.
Although I like the M1 Carbine, I don't feel that the rifle fits the bill. A Universal is made very poorly, and a decent M1 is in the $800.00 range. However, they are excellent, rugged firearms, and like the mini are designed like the M1 Garand/M14 series of battle rifles. Also the round is sufficient to hunt with in NA and reasonably cheap.
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