jerkface11
Member
That's just because of the rifles available. I've seen a 7.62x39 that would shoot as small of a group as the shooter was capable of.
What exactly is "inherent" accuracy in regards to a cartridge?
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solvability
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I think it is a relative term - heard it first in relation to 30-06 vs 308 - at some point 308 started winning more matches and folks concentrated on 308 with the argument that 308 was inherently more accurate.
I have always thought that the 308 guns were a newer design than the 30-06 guns but other assert the case has a more predictable burn so it yields better inherent accuracy. It is really hard to prove the argument.
I have always thought that the 308 guns were a newer design than the 30-06 guns but other assert the case has a more predictable burn so it yields better inherent accuracy. It is really hard to prove the argument.
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Driftertank
Member
An "inherently accurate" round has to do with internal ballistics, rather than external ballistics. It has to do with case design, and efficiency, and most importantly, consistency.
A good example is US .30 caliber service rifle rounds. The .30-06 was a great round, but by the 50's advancements in powders, ballistics and metallurgy meant that the size of the case could be reduced while maintaining the exterior ballistics of the .30-06, namely, a 150gr bullet at 2700fps. However, it was also found that the new round, the 7.62x51 or .308 Winchester, produced more uniform velocities and consistent accuracy than the '06 did, all other things being equal. The main reason for this is that the loads required to match the performance of the .30 M2 ball load, matched better the internal capacity and form of the case, reducing the inconsistencies resulting from changes in load distribution and resultant changes to the pressure curve, and the case shape and internal dimensions allowed for more efficient burn of the available powder than the '06 case did. As a result, all other outside factors being equal, the .308 is considered to be a more "inherently accurate" round than the .30-06. It's not to say that the '06 cannot be made as accurate as the .308 in a given bullet type and velocity, but rather that it will take more careful preparation and research to obtain similar results.
Other rounds mentioned, such as the PPC cartridges, 6.5 Grendel et al, benefit from similar attributes in their design that maximize the efficiency and consistency of each round from shot to shot. That is what's meant by a round being inherently accurate. It's not to say that every round of every load will always perform perfectly, but merely that the design of a particular round lends itself to consistency more than others of similar performance.
A good example is US .30 caliber service rifle rounds. The .30-06 was a great round, but by the 50's advancements in powders, ballistics and metallurgy meant that the size of the case could be reduced while maintaining the exterior ballistics of the .30-06, namely, a 150gr bullet at 2700fps. However, it was also found that the new round, the 7.62x51 or .308 Winchester, produced more uniform velocities and consistent accuracy than the '06 did, all other things being equal. The main reason for this is that the loads required to match the performance of the .30 M2 ball load, matched better the internal capacity and form of the case, reducing the inconsistencies resulting from changes in load distribution and resultant changes to the pressure curve, and the case shape and internal dimensions allowed for more efficient burn of the available powder than the '06 case did. As a result, all other outside factors being equal, the .308 is considered to be a more "inherently accurate" round than the .30-06. It's not to say that the '06 cannot be made as accurate as the .308 in a given bullet type and velocity, but rather that it will take more careful preparation and research to obtain similar results.
Other rounds mentioned, such as the PPC cartridges, 6.5 Grendel et al, benefit from similar attributes in their design that maximize the efficiency and consistency of each round from shot to shot. That is what's meant by a round being inherently accurate. It's not to say that every round of every load will always perform perfectly, but merely that the design of a particular round lends itself to consistency more than others of similar performance.
redneck2
Member
Handloader Magazine did a feature on this a number of years ago. Their take was that any cartridge could probably be made accurate in the right firearm, but some are much easier to tune.
Example was the .223. If someone askes "what's the best powder/bullet you'll get a dozen different answers and none are wrong. It's a very forgiving cartridge.
Obviously some cartridges stand out. If I had to guarantee I'd shoot sub 1/2" groups, I'd start with something like a 6BR. Short and fat is where it's at. Long cartridges can shoot well, but it's more of a crap shoot.
Example was the .223. If someone askes "what's the best powder/bullet you'll get a dozen different answers and none are wrong. It's a very forgiving cartridge.
Obviously some cartridges stand out. If I had to guarantee I'd shoot sub 1/2" groups, I'd start with something like a 6BR. Short and fat is where it's at. Long cartridges can shoot well, but it's more of a crap shoot.
jerkface11
Member
Lots of gobbledygook getting thrown around here. If you build the rifles the same way, load the ammo the same way, and use the same quality of components then it won't matter what cartridge you shoot.
FROGO207
Member
My take is that an inherently accurate round is one that when used in a large selection of firearms and a variety of off the shelf loadings from several manufacturers are more accurate at many varied distances than other similar firearms/rounds in that same caliber bullet. Say comparing all 30 cal rounds for example. You can reload most any caliber/load to be super accurate but some are good shooting over a wide range of loads/bullet weights without trying too hard. Or so it seems to me with the 308 and 30-06 using the 30 CAL limit.
Nom de Forum
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That is only true for shooting that does not require the absolute smallest of shot groups, such as hunting and most of the target shooting sports. Nobody is going to win a brenchrest competition using precision rifle shooting specially made ultra-high quality .30-30 cartridge.
jerkface11
Member
Nothing would stop you. Other than the lack of truly high quality brass. You could make up for that with proper prep though.
Nom de Forum
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If that were true the .222 Rem would still dominate Brenchrest.
jerkface11
Member
That has more to do with fashion than anything else.
Nom de Forum
Member
What makes you think fashion has anything to do with it? Don't you think the scores had something to do with it? I chose the 6mm PPC for a reason. I believe it is the cartridge that dethroned the .222 Remington. Too bad Lou Palmisano isn't around to clear things up for us.
A better question would be what makes a cartridge inherently INaccurate. There are few, because normal testing by ammunition designers and makers will weed them out before they reach the market.
But a poor bullet shape, poor bearing surface in a barrel, wrong choice of powder, lack of adequate power/velocity, poor sectional density, can all mean a cartridge that is inherently INaccurate. There are few factors that can be isolated to the cartridge alone; most involve some firearms factors as well, like rifling twist.
Many of the cartridges considered inherently accurate should not be. There is little about a .38 Special Wadcutter that is "inherently accurate", yet with years of development for a specialized game, it is the choice of bullseye revolver shooters.
Jim
But a poor bullet shape, poor bearing surface in a barrel, wrong choice of powder, lack of adequate power/velocity, poor sectional density, can all mean a cartridge that is inherently INaccurate. There are few factors that can be isolated to the cartridge alone; most involve some firearms factors as well, like rifling twist.
Many of the cartridges considered inherently accurate should not be. There is little about a .38 Special Wadcutter that is "inherently accurate", yet with years of development for a specialized game, it is the choice of bullseye revolver shooters.
Jim
rswartsell
Member
Surely everyone is aware of the revolution Claude Etienne-Minie caused in the 19th century with the "Minie-Ball" (or Mini-Ball_sic.) over previous round patched balls.
In my mind the "inherent accuracy" from an ammunition standpoint is dependent on the specific load.
In my mind the "inherent accuracy" from an ammunition standpoint is dependent on the specific load.
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Nom de Forum
Member
Good point. The inherent accuracy of one cartridge versus another should be about the last thing shooters should be concerned about for improving their shooting accuracy.
tipoc
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A 148 gr. bullet doing around 700 fps is a very mild shooter. Nice wide clear cut holes mean a better score when they touch a line.
Same with 185 gr. 45 acp SWC rounds.
This is where you see that some rules are different at the 25 and 50 yard line with handguns than at a few hundred yards with a rifle.
tipoc
RPRNY
Member
A cartridge is "inherently accurate" when gun writers, fanboys, or the Marketing Department say it is.
No cartridge possessing commercial viability, with the possible exception of the 300 BO/Whisper/whatever we're calling it this week, is inherently inaccurate.
Let the flames begin.
No cartridge possessing commercial viability, with the possible exception of the 300 BO/Whisper/whatever we're calling it this week, is inherently inaccurate.
Let the flames begin.
Jim Watson
Member
Confucius say: The inherently accurate cartridge is the one in its general category that has been shot the most by persons demanding accuracy. Things get refined when they need to be.
the 38 wadcutter has been considered inherently accurate for decades. Its no wonder that load, and the 45acp using that 185 grain semi wadcutter are so good shooting, that ive seen articles in the hodgdon annual that say
if your gun cant shoot that load accurately, you need a new gun.
if your gun cant shoot that load accurately, you need a new gun.
HisStigness
Member
I think inherently accurate is a pretty vague term, but does actually exist to some extent. I consider inherently accurate to mean a cartridge where the, or one of the, principal purposes was to make it accurate (and was obviously successful at being accurate). Things that have been mentioned, like powder burn efficiency, shoulder angle, and bullet type can all make a round inherently accurate. For example, the 6mm PPC and 7.62x39 cartridges are of the same family and share the same case head dimensions. I don't care what you do with the 7.62x39 round (make brass that is consistent to the picometer, use solid hand turned bullets, shoot it in a rifle with the tightest chamber with the best barrel) it will never shoot as accurately as the best 6mm PPC rounds will. It comes down to the fact that the 6mm PPC was designed to win matches and the 7.62 was designed to be deadly, thus the 6mm is inherently more accurate.
ljnowell
Member
It's a magazine writers term that means "my favorite cartridge" or "I was paid to review this new whiz-bang cartridge."
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
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I'm really curious why.
Are they (30-06 and 308 win) firing the same exact projectiles with the same rifling twist in the same actions, with the 308 proving out to be such a demonstrably more accurate round?
Would that then be a function of that particular projectile being better suited at the 308's velocity range than the 30-06's velocity range or 308 + 150fps?
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Zaydok Allen
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Interesting read. So in theory, all other aspects of a cartridge being the same, will a shorter rifle cartridge always have more accuracy, or potential accuracy, than a longer parent case, due to a more uniform powder ignition and burn?
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
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All I know is that I have a lot of fun when shooting at paper and steel with not only pistol cartridges through 16" and 20" lever carbines but also with .45ACP through 3" and 5" barrels... then again, distances are 100 yds.
Like someone said here, earlier, "short and fat is where it's at".
I say this and post this lightheartedly, of course. Please, by all means, carry on!
All I know is that I have a lot of fun when shooting at paper and steel with not only pistol cartridges through 16" and 20" lever carbines but also with .45ACP through 3" and 5" barrels... then again, distances are 100 yds.
Like someone said here, earlier, "short and fat is where it's at".
I say this and post this lightheartedly, of course. Please, by all means, carry on!
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