What gun companies haven't "sold out?"

[John Wayne]

Anyone who has perused these forums long enough will undoubtedly encounter posters lamenting the loss of yet another respectable gun company who sold out. This can be for various reasons, including but not limited to cutting corners/cheapening the final product, siding with anti-gun legislators, refusing to sell certain products to civilians, etc.

My point with this thread is not to start an argument about how there are no good gun companies left. What I'm more or less wondering is if every decent company that's been around long enough has at some point been accused of this.

Off the top of my head,

Winchester went downhill in '64
S&W is publically traded, sided with the Clintons, and of course the ILS
Colt (forgot what they did, something with fingerprint access?)
Ruger wouldn't sell hi-cap magazines to civilians
H&K hates you

I can't recall anything mentioned about the following companies, but something has probably been said:
Remington
Springfield Armory
Taurus
Glock

 

[Liberty1776]

Henry Arms hasn't. Great, well-made products. Not a huge range of items but nice stuff.

 

[Zundfolge]

I would argue that in recent years Ruger and S&W have redeemed themselves.


But yeah HK hates you and always will

 

[Mags]

FN comes to mind, also alot of the smaller guys like LaRue, BCM, and Noveske. But I guess when you specifically make evil black rifles it would kill you bank roll to sell out.

 

[Zombiphobia]

I don't mean to jack the tread or throiw it off topic, but what's with HK hating everyone?

I kept seeing the trend in the 'Gun Posters" thread, but I dunno what it's about.

 

[TriTone]

I think its a reference to HK's lack of caring about it's non-military/le market.

 

[Zombiphobia]

well, isn't most of their business from military and LE? Do they have a crappy attitude towards civilians who need customer service?

On the matter of gun companies having a crappy attitude, I've only this one exeprience with them and I most certainly did not like it.. DPMS. I was asking about a weapon marked as LE/Military only, asking them the procedure for having Commander approval and so on and I was treated like a straight up POS for asking.

I think it was also STVI, can't remember, they make some really wicked looking 1911's. They treated me like dirt too, asking about a customized weapon/cost/time to complete etc... They wouldn't answer my querstion just basically told me it'd take many many hours to be machined by people who make hundreds of dollars per hour... kind of a "you can't afford it now <edit> off" sort of vibe. Just told them I was interested in a custom pair of 1911's when I got back from deployment and wanted some info... dunno what the guy's problem was.

 

[texas bulldog]

Frankly, I think some of the "sold out" stories are either overblown or ancient history that really has little bearing on the present situation. No company is perfect, firearms or otherwise. That said, I would say the following (to name just a few) have never done anything that could accurately be called "selling out":

STI
Browning/FN
Dan Wesson
Mossberg
US Firearms
Beretta
Barrett
Kel-tec
Henry
CZ

Now I'm sure someone will come along and explain why one of those companies is the spawn of Satan. But I've never heard anything negative about their business practices, whether relating to gun politics, quality compromises, or anything else. And for the record, I only own a gun from one of the above (unfortunately), so this isn't just a list of my personal faves.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

HK military vs. civilian
Military

Civilian

Now look at FNH Military Vs. Civilian
Military:
Civilian

All FNH does is add 6 more inches to the barrel while HK makes it so the USC can only have 10 rounds without buying a different receiver or buying aftermarket hard to find magazines. Plus it has a ugly thumbhole stock. Didn't HK stop selling lowers to Police armorers because some sold them to civilians to convert their rifles into semi auto clones of the real deal?

 

[rockinrussky]

Barret is certainly a company that never 'sold out.' A few years back, didn't they decide not to sell to California LE because the state law would not allow lowly civilians to purchase any 50 cal centerfire rifles? Kudos to them for that.

 

[LAK]

A general observation; corporations large and small are all business. They are also not ignorant of the global political agenda of civil disarmament, and will obviously concentrate on their food for long term survival; government contracts. Be they for military or civilian agencies.

The ones with the moral and political fiber - and backbone - to resist this are noteworthy with people like Barrett. But then Barrett is still a family business.

Heartening though to see a few nights back on the SyFy channel, an ad for Henry Firearms during primetime viewing hours - think it was just before 9pm one night.

-------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[J.Boyette]

FIVETWOSEVEN,

The FN PS90 USG came out after the Assault Weapons band. The HK USC came out during the band.

Oh, the FN PS90 USG has a longer barrel then the HK USC but the PS90 is a bull pup, so by basic design, its shorter.

Not even a close argument

Oh, how does HK screw civilians? Anybody know?

 

[ChronoCube]

Hi Point seems to be on the side of the angels too. Affordable and reliable semiauto firearms for the common man.

The difference between HK and FN when it came to the USC vs PS90 is probably that HK doesn't have a rifle manufacturing plant in the US, and thus is limited to 10-rd mags and thumbhole stocks when it comes to imported firearms, thanks to US import laws.

Unlike FN (and Sig, with the SG 556), HK has not opened a US plant to manufacture civilian versions of the MP5, G3, G36, etc. This would be simply a sin of omission had they not gone after the GSG-5 last year, when they could have just started producing civilian MP5s in the US. Another thumbs down for HK.

 

[SpentCasing]

The 'hk hates you' was a joke post from awhile back. it was never meant to be serious. google or search 'hk hates you' to read it. its actually pretty funny.

 

[ArmedLiberal]

Marlin

CMP

 

[GigaBuist]

Correia started up the "because you suck and we hate you" thing with HK. It's pretty funny.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

 

[cleetus03]

Taurus, definitely keeps it "REAL" and Politically Incorrect.

I love how all of their Firearm Manuals boldly state the following;

WARNING:
Securing your firearm may inhibit access to it in a defense situation and
result in injury or death.

 

[Bubbles]

HK's reputation for bad customer service is well-deserved.

Cooper Firearms, ROBAR, and HS Precision are also no-go's in my book.

 

[ChronoCube]

Cooper Firearms, ROBAR, and HS Precision are also no-go's in my book.

What'd they do?

 

[Deus Machina]

Taurus, definitely keeps it "REAL" and Politically Incorrect.

Mine also states, several pages away, that failing to secure a firearm may result in injury or death. That's a nod to their lawyers.
S&W and Ruger have been redeeming themselves lately, yes. Offering an EBR and extra 30-round magazines in the face of an election that could have gone sideways fairly well reverses their old stance.

The only one I can think of that's always been pure, off hand, is Barret. The version of the story I had heard, rather than--

A few years back, didn't they decide not to sell to California LE because the state law would not allow lowly civilians to purchase any 50 cal centerfire rifles?

--was that the CA Sheriff's office (I believe) sent some rifles in for work without notification, and Barret not only refused to service 'illegal weapons', but also 'suggested' that they deal with the return shipping and associated paperwork themselves.

This means, should Barret ever manufacture a gun that I can afford and can use properly in the 100-yard ranges I have local, I am going to buy three, and send the founder a letter myself.

 

[CDW4ME]

Kimber hasn't been around as long as some, but I do not think they have "sold out"

Glock, already mentioned.

These are my two favorite firearms makers, that I can afford (or just not willing to lay down $2,700 + for a Wilson).

Glocks have an optional IL system.
Kimbers don't have a IL (Internal lock).

S&W puts the IL on their revolvers, but not their 1911's

Springfield Armory puts a IL on their 1911's but not on the XD line.

KAHR hasn't been around very long, but I don't think they have sold out.

 

[kimberkid]

Kimber hasn't been around as long as some, but I do not think they have "sold out"

Kimber's don't have a IL (Internal lock).

Sorry but Kimber did sell out ... and they do have an internal lock.

California banned Kimber's claiming the original design didn't pass the drop test ... thats when they came out with the Kimber II, with the Schwartz safety ... and dropped the original design, forcing the II on everyone else in the country.

Schwartz safety is nothing but an additional mechanical safety to please the PC crowd and their legal efforts ... and totally un-necessary. When it works, it works, but when it doesn't work, the pistol won't fire.

 

[rbernie]

Cooper Firearms, ROBAR, and HS Precision are also no-go's in my book.

What'd they do?

In 2008, Cooper contributed to the election campaign of politicials that supported the reinstatement of the AWB. Even more distastefully, HS Precision used Lon Horiuchi as a spokesperson.

When it works, it works, but when it doesn't work, the pistol won't fire.

That's a topic probably suitable for a thread in Autoloaders and not here, but let's face it - the Kimber FPS is no different that the FPS of a dozen other handgun manufacturers. More to the point, I have seen and read of fewer instances of the Kimber FPS causing an issue than I have, say, for a Sig or CZ. It's a non-issue made into an issue by folk that simply want SOMETHING to hate.

============

I think that we need to define 'sell-out' more crisply than we have so far in this thread. Actively supporting the efforts of the anti-RKBA folks while taking money from the gun community is being a sellout, or worse. Compromising design or implementation to keep your gun-related product viable in the face of anti-RKBA restrictions does not constitute a sell-out.

 

[loadedround]

FYI, Ruger now sells 20 and 30 round Mini-14 and Mini-30 magazines to the public and have done so for the last several years. I have bought some from MidwayUSA about two months ago.

 

[meytind]

I'm not sure what HK was expected to do during the US AWB with all of our "sporting purpose" import restrictions in place. They weren't allowed to sell semi-auto versions of their smgs to civilians with no other changes.

Just look at the SAIGA rifles from Russia. They come with sporting stocks and can only hold 10 round magazines unless the receiver is modified because a regular AK has no "sporting purpose."