what gun did gavrilo princip use?
- Thread starter papajack
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If you look around, most popular accounts list it as a FN 1900. But then you see other accounts listing the FN 1910 or others as the pistol that started WWI!
So who knows? Sometime back, a pic circulated online that showed the gun in a European museum. If I remember, it was a 1910 in the pic. Though that doesn't prove it's the real deal, I suppose.
So who knows? Sometime back, a pic circulated online that showed the gun in a European museum. If I remember, it was a 1910 in the pic. Though that doesn't prove it's the real deal, I suppose.
HammerBite
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According to one source Princip twice fired a Belgian made Fabrique Nationale M 1910 semi-automatic pistol in 9 mm Kurz (.380 ACP) caliber (serial numbers 19074, 19075, 19120 and 19126 were supplied to the assassins; which specific pistol was Princip's is unclear). I have also seen claims that the gun was in .32 ACP.
1911 guy
Member
1910 in .380acp. Little handgun caused millions of deaths.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Interesting. I had always read it was a FN1900 in .32.
'00 on top, '10 on the bottom:
http://www.corbins.com/images/fn1900s.jpg
The 1900's recoil spring is either above or below (not sure which) the barrel, while the 1910's encircles the fixed barrel. Virtually all blowback autos since use the 1910's design.
Would that have been considered a "one-shot stop?"
The archduke, as I recall, lingered for several days before finally succumbing.
'00 on top, '10 on the bottom:
http://www.corbins.com/images/fn1900s.jpg
The 1900's recoil spring is either above or below (not sure which) the barrel, while the 1910's encircles the fixed barrel. Virtually all blowback autos since use the 1910's design.
Would that have been considered a "one-shot stop?"
The archduke, as I recall, lingered for several days before finally succumbing.Hi, "Lone",
The above responses are correct; it was a Model 1910 in 9mm Browning Short (.380 ACP). Many years ago, an American gun "expert" wrote that it was a Browning 1900, and that story stuck even though, at the time, the real guns used were in a Vienna museum for anyone who cared to look.
The pictures you show are interesting, but both appear to be prototypes, not production guns; the lower seems to be for the FN Model 1903 or the Colt 1903 hammerless, not the Model 1910. The upper seems to be for the Model 1900 but it also differs considerably from the production gun.
Yes, the Model 1900 has its recoil spring above the barrel and, in a neat piece of design work JMB did not use again, it serves as both recoil spring and firing pin spring.
Jim
The above responses are correct; it was a Model 1910 in 9mm Browning Short (.380 ACP). Many years ago, an American gun "expert" wrote that it was a Browning 1900, and that story stuck even though, at the time, the real guns used were in a Vienna museum for anyone who cared to look.
The pictures you show are interesting, but both appear to be prototypes, not production guns; the lower seems to be for the FN Model 1903 or the Colt 1903 hammerless, not the Model 1910. The upper seems to be for the Model 1900 but it also differs considerably from the production gun.
Yes, the Model 1900 has its recoil spring above the barrel and, in a neat piece of design work JMB did not use again, it serves as both recoil spring and firing pin spring.
Jim
The Lone Haranguer
Member
1911 guy said:
I thought we weren't supposed to blame the gun. 
Technosavant
Member
Keep this in mind:
That assassination and the resulting diplomatic entanglements let to World War I. WWI involved 20 million dead and 21 million wounded. In Russia, the Bolsheviks used the war as fuel for their revolution, giving communism a solid foothold. In Europe, the eventual armistice sowed the seeds of resentment in Germany, which the National Socialist party used to gain power there, and they helped bring us WWII.
World War II's casualty estimates aren't anywhere near firm, and if you count famine and general trouble caused to civilian populaces, as many as 72 million people were killed. The aftermath of WWII led to the growth of communism and the Cold War, which brought us the wars in Korea and Vietnam. Communism itself racked up an impressive death toll in the far east, as well as revolutionary groups causing mayhem throughout the third world.
The Holocaust so shocked the world that the Jewish state of Israel was created in Palestine, which itself has been the subject of quite a few smaller wars, and which has fueled the anger of Islamic nations toward the West, bringing us modern state sponsored terrorism.
That doesn't even factor in the trouble caused by the superpowers trying to keep up with each other throughout the Cold War, each causing environmental destruction and disease in various places the world over (from assorted cases of spreading poisons in the envrionment).
Think about that the next time somebody says the .380ACP has no stopping power!!! On one hand it is amusing to see what became of that little round, at the same time that amusement is tempered with horror at seeing what became of that shooting. Some shots have lawyers attached. Others will change the face of the globe for centuries to come. If you want a "shot heard round the world," IMO, that one is more influential than any other, including JFK's assassination.
bannockburn
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Technosavant
A rather interesting historical perspective. However one could also argue that the seeds of revolution and social upheaval were sewn throughout history, and only came to fruition when extraordinary circumstances occured. You could go back through history, to any point that you like, and find a thread from that period which could be extended all the way through to the present. So yes, that little .380 did indeed start a major conflagration which enguled the world, and quite possibly does still to this day. But it's underlying dynamics were in place long before any of those players stepped upon the stage in 1914.
A rather interesting historical perspective. However one could also argue that the seeds of revolution and social upheaval were sewn throughout history, and only came to fruition when extraordinary circumstances occured. You could go back through history, to any point that you like, and find a thread from that period which could be extended all the way through to the present. So yes, that little .380 did indeed start a major conflagration which enguled the world, and quite possibly does still to this day. But it's underlying dynamics were in place long before any of those players stepped upon the stage in 1914.
I own an FN Browning 1900. The gun pictured above looks subtly different, grips are wrong for one thing.
Recoil spring on these is above the barrel, also powers the striker, whole pistol is held together with two big screws. The FN 1900 is a pretty cool, and definately unique little pistol.
Recoil spring on these is above the barrel, also powers the striker, whole pistol is held together with two big screws. The FN 1900 is a pretty cool, and definately unique little pistol.
BlazingAngel01
Member
FN Model 1910
Serial number-19047
It is now in display at the Museum of Military History, Vienna, Austria.
Serial number-19047
It is now in display at the Museum of Military History, Vienna, Austria.
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Technosavant
Member
Very true, but it doesn't fit my hypothesis, so it must be ignored.
Seriously, though, yes, any major war will have a large number of causes. It usually isn't just one thing (and that can go for anything, not just major wars). Could those other causes have been rectified had the flash point of the assassination never happened? Possibly in some cases. IMO, a Russian revolution would have happened, but its anybody's guess as to whether the Bolsheviks would have been the leaders.
Maybe things would have been better. Maybe they'd have been as bad but in a different way. Maybe they'd have been worse. However, the post WWI world was significantly different from before the war (it pretty well ended most ruling monarchies in Europe), and the increased lethality of the battlefield did force a bit of circumspection before resorting to war (much as the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki forced people to take a respectful step back from using nuclear weapons for tactical advantage; IMO, without dropping those in WWII, we would have seen one of the major powers go ahead and use them in the Cold War, but that's another ball of wax).
So yeah, those few .380 shots didn't solely cause WWI and its results, but they were the proverbial lit matches in a fireworks factory.
Timthinker
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One additional historical footnote is worth realting about that incident. The Archduke wore a bullet resistant vest at the time of the assassination. The vest "failed" because the Archduke was struck in the throat. Sometimes it seems as though the best laid plans can go astray.
Timthinker
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