What guns for Stone Age animals?

[Sam Adams]

Here's a story about mammoths and the color of their hair. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5154892.stm

In the story it mentions the use of hair color for camoflage...which brings up the question of "from what?" Which, to my sci-fi oriented mind automatically brings up the following scenario: What if you were transported back in time about 20,000 years ago and had to survive? Assume that you had adequate clothing & medicine, and some cave to live in, plus the cave girl/guy of your choice (oh, yeah, you're also supplied with lots of soap, running water, razors, toothpaste, toothbrushes and deoderant for your mono-eyebrowed main squeeze, so you don't have to bring along paper bags or nose plugs). So, the only question about your survival has to be (esp. here on THR ): What guns do you bring along to survive? We are talking about shooting prey such as the mammoths and giant bison of the era, as well as protection against sabre-tooth tigers, cave bears and cave lions. Oh, and let's not forget about cave men from neighboring tribes - and we're talking about Neanderthals, with their greater bone density and muscle mass, not us fragile Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Rules: 1) any firearms that can reasonably be carried by a modern human being are allowed (so no quad .50s, OK ), but no future stuff like lasers, phasers, blasters, etc. No grenades, land mines or other explosives, no Predator drones, no B-52s...guns, people, just guns.

2) You can bring along as many as 5,000 rounds of ammo, in any combination you want.

3) Choose up to 6 guns - 2 rifles, 2 shotties and 2 handguns. Full autos, if you choose them, will count as a rifle. Combo guns will count as a rifle.

You get hearing protection - I know that we're going to have some big ordnance, and survival is not enhanced by being hard of hearing or deaf (unless arguing with a stubborn significant other, but that's a different thread).

Have at it! I'll chime in later, as I've got to go home (or I'll be having a big argument with Mrs. Adams ).

 

[Sistema1927]

Rifle - Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70
Shotgun - Remington 870 in 12 gauge
Small Bore Rifle - Marlin 39A .22 LR
Handgun - S&W 686 .357 magnum

1,250 rounds of ammo for each.

 

[mbs357]

I'd rather have weapons with matching calibers...
Such as a revolver and a lever rifle both in .357...more ammo that way.\
Other than that, I agree with the last post.

 

[Justin]

A can of Raid to kill that *bleeping*ing butterfly.

 

[GregGry]

I will take this

And two rounds of ammo

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Rifle - Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70
Shotgun - Remington 870 in 12 gauge
Small Bore Rifle - Marlin 39A .22 LR
Handgun - S&W 686 .357 magnum

I'd say that's close to a perfect choice.

My only differences would be I would prefer a 44 magnum for the handgun, probably a Ruger Blackhawk.

I would want of my 12 gauge ammo to be buckshot.

 

[vynx]

I find out what an expert guide packs for an Africa hunt and start there.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Who needs guns

I'd never leave the cave



All joking aside, I think any gun that can stand up to the big game of Africa should be ok. I'd take a nice double rifle in .375H&H or .460.

then probably a revolver/levergun combo in .357 for smaller, less dangerous game.

 

[Preacherman]

Hmmm . . .

OK, we're back in the Stone Age, and ammo resupply is a no-no. Your 5,000 rounds of ammo isn't going to be enough for more than a couple of years if you plan to practice much, or want to teach your caveman buddies to protect your tender backside while you sleep - so will you allow reloading of empty cases? If so, it's realistic. Otherwise, waaaay too little ammo.

Anyway, that said, on to the battery.

RIFLES: I want something portable, able to take anything edible I'm likely to run across, but also heavy enough in caliber to take care of the likely predators (including saber-tooth tigers! ). Therefore, my "all-round use" carry rifle would be in caliber .375 H&H Magnum. Big enough for even a mammoth with good bullet placement, small enough to take deer-size animals without too much meat wastage, and powerful enough to take down the predators of the day.

My second rifle would be something more defensively oriented. If the local caveman clan decide that my cave (and my girlfriend) are just what they've always wanted, I might face a nasty CQB struggle or two - and they just have to get close enough to put a flint-edged spearhead into my brisket, and I'm done. So, my second rifle would be a semi-auto battle rifle in .308/7.62x51mm. Probably either a FAL or an M1, with the FAL being the more likely choice. The semi-auto capability would give me rapid fire, the cartridge is powerful enough for Ugga and Bugga, no matter how muscle-bound they are, and the ammo is light enough that I could carry up to a couple hundred rounds if necessary. I certainly wouldn't take a 5.56mm!

SHOTGUNS: Easy. A matched pair of Remington 870 Wingmasters, one with a decent screw-in choke long barrel for bird-hunting, the other with a shorter barrel with sights, for hunting animals and for defensive use. The two could share components, so if one goes down I can take bits off it (even barrels) and use them in the other. Both would have mag extensions, sidesaddles, and any other bits and pieces I wanted to mount on them. 12ga., of course, and a reasonable mixture of ammo, from birdshot through slugs - but probably not much buckshot, as I'd rather use a slug. Rottweil Brenneke's, please.

HANDGUNS: I wouldn't plan on using a handgun for hunting, but I'd want something powerful enough to defend against an unexpected predator at close range, and also something potent enough to use against cave-man attackers at close range. I'd probably choose a matched pair of Ruger Redhawks or Super Redhawks in .44 Magnum or .454 Casull - probably the .44, as it's more than enough for most up-close-and-personal encounters. I'd be able to use .44 Special loads (or downloaded Magnums) for anti-personnel use if I wanted to, and the full-house stuff would certainly be enough to kill a predator in an emergency, given proper shot placement. The .454 is a bit too loud and heavy in recoil for my taste, but it's rather more potent than the .44: so if I were in an area where large predators proliferate, it might be a better choice. I could then use .45 Colt as a download. Whatever the caliber, I'd want the Redhawk or Super Redhawk platform, as those darn things are built like tanks, over-engineered to the Nth degree, and don't break much at all. Gunsmiths are likely to be thin on the ground in the Stone Age, you know.

Given the 5,000-round ammo limit, I wouldn't bother to take a rimfire along. I can't reload those rounds, and they're not powerful enough to serve me for anything more than plinking and small game hunting.

 

[Fosbery]

Holland and Holland double rifle in .700 Nitro Express

For the mammoths, carried by my cavegirl who would act as gunbearer. Powerful enough to kill just about anything, including my shoulder!

Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70

Primary hunting rifle. Repeatable, light, accurate and powerful.

S&W Model 625 in .44 magnum

Backup defence against predators.

S&W Model 625 in .44 magnum

Another one of these, as a backup defence against predators for my cavegirl.

Remington 870 in 12 bore

For birds and cave-defence. Birdshot to catch me some tasty fodder, and slugs to take deer if need be, or anyone trying to get into my cave. Would prefer an 1100, but they're too unreliable in comparison.

H&K G36C

For defence against cavemen when out and about, and cave-defence for cavegirl. Might not have a whole lot of stopping power, but it's light and compact enough for me to keep with me in the outdoors as well as whatever I'm hunting with, and my revolver. Not got the noise and muzzle flash of 7.62mm, so useable inside my cave too. Accurate enough to take out attackers at range, but fine for close up work too.

 

[rustymaggot]

possible conbo would be..............
m1 garand , 2000 rounds.
m1 carbine at least 15 magazines, 2000 rounds
ruger blackhawk in 30 carbine
ruger 10/22 1000 rounds


ideal for me would be 3 garands and 3 m1 carbines. that way any broken parts can be replaced via canibalization. ammo split up 50/50 of each. use of shell adapters will let 30 carbine be fired minute of pieplate from 30-06 guns.


included accessories would be many many 30-06 to .30 carbine shell adapters. various scopes for pretty much everything including a night vision rifle scope. i would want versapod bipods. various slings and belts with pouches for ammo or magazines.

others may go with blackpowder so they can reclaim bullets and make more powder. way i figure is that no way is a mammoth going to take more than 3 shots from a 30-06 to kill, more like one shot thru the lungs at distance and wait for it to bleed out then second shot to make sure when i get closer. after smoking the meat how long would it take to eat a mammoth anyway? way i figure even with the 30-06 alone id never starve. the m1 carbines would be adequate for defending against smaller animals, and the garands would take care of everything bigger.

makes me wonder if you could get a baby mammoth and domesticate it. use it for hauling heavy stuff like logs to build a fort to keep out the unwanted critters. use it to haul back meat thats too big to carry yourself. domesticating some wild dogs might be a good idea, so they would warn you of anything comming to get you. building a compound would be a very early endevor. have a good fence and plenty of dogs. aggresive tribes would not be a problem. shoot one from a distance and the rest would be afraid. shoot extra animals and leave em for the local tribes. eventually the tribes would regard you as a meal ticket and would help protect you just like the dogs. why would the tribesmen try to come kill you when you give them all the food they would ever need. maybe even start a barter system with the tribes. you shoot an extra buffalo for them and they can tan the skins for you. they can weave baskets, dig canals, haul wood, whatever.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Well, I don't see a need for 6 guns, so we'll go with:

Armalite AR-50, 1000 rounds
Remington 700 .375 Ultra, 3000 rounds
Remington SP-10, 1500 shells
S&W 500 6" PC model, 500 rounds.

I figure even as large as some of those critters were, there's not likely too many that the .375 Ultra couldn't bring down. If there are, then the .50 BMG comes into play. I would assume that flying critters would be larger, hence the 10 gauge. The S&W 500 would be for defense only, so I can't see a need for too many rounds. Also, such boomers would reduce the desire to "plink".

I would also become proficient with a bow.

 

[rangerruck]

mgi hydra in 223, 6.5, 762.39, 50 beowulf. then a calico in 22lr, 100 round mag.
223=long range varmints, 6.5= very long range varmints, and larger edible game.
762.39= cave clearing of old school zombies.50 beo= very large varmints.
calico 22lr full auto=when i really need to spray and pray.

 

[rustymaggot]

ok, i started writing mine when there was only one post, and after looking at others posts i think ill have to agree with how others are going extra big. if you only habe 5000 rounds better make em count. so, maybe forget the garand and go with a semi auto .50bmg. make those mammoths go down in one shot each.

forget the m1 carbine and go for somthing a bit bigger like fal or ak47

i still think a shotgun is a waste of space and time in this particular situation. a rifle will do what slugs do, and birds arent going to be a guaranteed one shot kill with the birdshot. pound for pound ill take mammoth over a bird. its eat for a few days vs eat for months at the cost of one of your precious 5000 rounds.

i still think the local tribesmen will not be a problem at all. further, if they did come for war they would be easy targets as they would be posturing trying to intimidate, not seeking cover. they might learn to take cover eventually but id try to befrend them long before they have a chance to learn how to kill me.

 

[zoom6zoom]

no future stuff like lasers, phasers, blasters, etc.

Then what's the point of having a time machine?

 

[lacoochee]

No one mentioned

I would think a simple flint lock kentucky rifle and a flint lock pistol would be a nice addition to your kit (plus multiple replacement parts). Light body armor and a long sword as well as a 75 - 100 pd compound bow or crossbow, would be useful as well. Not to mention a war tomahawk and bowie knife for those up close personal moments. Then, I would look at a matched pistol, lever action pair in 44 mag, and 2 remington 870 shotguns. Don't forget a saddle and stirrups for you newly tamed steppe pony (aka stone age quarter horse).

Deo Vindice

 

[MudPuppy]

I think I'd take:
A Barrett with about 3k rounds.
An AK with 800.

A Saiga 12 and a run of the mill sears roebucker break open and 1k rounds.

A Berretta Cougar 8045 and about 200rounds.

*I'm kicking around an idea for a story with time traveling safari hunters. Not to give anything away, but something bad happens on the trip back.

 

[Jim Watson]

Six guns, 5000 rounds?
You gonna 'port in a vehicle, hire Alley Oop's tribe as porters, or train a mastodon to carry all that junk?

I'd get Blaser to make me up one of those 'no two barrels the same caliber' drillings. Say, .22, 9.3x74, 12 ga. Lots of .22s, some 9.3s. and 12 ga only for camp defense and short term emergency small game subsistence hunting. A 1911 with, as Jeff Cooper put it, half a pound of spare parts.

Add a good bow and a class in flintknapping and fletching.

 

[mustanger98]

First off, this thread is reminding me of the tv series called "Lost World" where the scientists go somewhere and find the dinosuars are still there and meet up with Tarzan's blonde 3rd cousin...

Okay, my picks...

Rifle- Bolt, K98k in 7.92mm or .30-06 or maybe a No.4 Enfield which is of course .303British. Semi-auto, M1 Garand. Whichever would have probably 3K rounds of ammo. I think I'd want a Hawken flintlock in at least .50caliber, but I don't do flintlocks to know if I could keep it running. I don't know about casting lead ball and making my own powder though.

Sidearm- Ruger's Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk. 1911A1. Whichever would get the remaining 2K rounds.

Shotgun- 870 or a good SxS. I don't have to have a shotgun, but if I did, I'd probably have some birdshot and the number of rounds for the sidearms would be adjusted. I'm not much of a shotgunner so most emphasis would go towards rifles and sidearms. If I did flintlocks regularly, I think I might not mind a Brown Bess or Charleville as I could load shot in place of ball so there's my shotgun option.

One observation is that 5K rounds ain't much when you really do live by the gun. You have to use your ammo wisely and even then you can run short. Somebody mentioned being proficient with archery; good idea.

 

[stevelyn]

Full size 1895 Marlin in 45-70.
Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt
A SxS or O/U 12 ga. (simpler mechanics)
60# Longbow w/plenty of 18th century style steel trade points.

 

[Hoppy590]

Big gun: Mechem NTW-20, south african 20mm anti-material rifle... never know what you may need to kill that wieghs over 2 tons in short notice ( and a little for my fun outta it )

Anti tribal/ medium game: 308 fal.

Shotgun, Hunting: winchester model 12, pidgeon model in 12 gauge. they give me pudgys. ya i said it, i get sexual aroused by a shotgun.

Shotgun, Cave Defense: Saiga 12. reliable, quick reload, durable

pistol, defense: (found a flaw in your plan?) i want the Thunder five. the revolver that shoots both .45lc and .410 shot gun. i would classify this as a "combo" gun as it in no way resembles the bulk, or weight that a combo rifle would

Pistol, hunting: good old .22lr revolver or a .17 revolver


50 rounds of 20mm( i doubt i could carry it, and i plan on using it to down big game, once in a while, then smoke/salt the meat to make it last)
1000 rounds 308
1500 rounds assorted 12gauge shotgun ammor ( bird buck and slug)
450 .45lc ammo
500 .410 shells.
1500 rounds of .22

 

[johnster999]

I'd take my 12 gauge and my Glock and hope for the best.

999

 

[Limeyfellow]

I be more concerned with cave bears than mammoths. True they can really screw you up badly though anything used for elephant hunting today should do the trick. The cave bears hide in the caves you use to sleep and keep warm in and the most powerful carnivore of the day. They grew up to 900-1600ibs and where considerably larger than grizzlies. There was plenty of bad megafauna out there.

However with the rounds not being replensiable unless your a good chemist and machinist I would think the only real way forward would be a black powder muzzleloader in large numbers given out between a tribe would be the way to go forward.

 

[Dacoda]

Would a .300 mag using nosler partitions knock down a mammoth? If so.. I'd bring the guns I already own.

 

[Fosbery]

Besides guns and ammo, I'd also take a good British long bow and plenty of arrows, and learn how to make more bows and arrows. I'd take as many knives of varrying types that I could, plenty of axes, parangs, machetes, an expanding baton, a Gladius sword and a late 19th century British army officer's sword. Multitools, hammers, shovels, screws, screwdrivers, nails. Rope and other bindings. Saws, fishing rods, razor wire, tin cans (can make an alarm system), string, textiles kits (needles, thread etc). I'd learn how to extract and work metal, shape stone, carpentry, boat building, fishing, trapping, slaughtering, hunting. Loads of lighters and dry matches, plenty of flint (in case the nearest source is far away), some strips of bicycle wheel (makes an excellent, water proof firelighter). A tent, hammock, kevlar gloves, big backpacks, a wheelbarrow. I'd learn to ride a horse and learn how to tame one, I'd learn how to handle and domesticate animals like cows and pigs and chickens. I'd take a flare gun, flares, torches and plenty of batteries. Nightvision, binoculars, belts and vests, body armour, summer, winter and water proof clothing. Lots of good boots. Floodlights and some solar pannels to keep them charged, and a battery recharger for my torches and night vision. Petrol and other fuels to make ye olde torches and make extra quick fires. Pickaxes, ice axes, snow boots, skiing goggles, a bee keeper's suit, a mosquito net. As many vaccinations and immunizations as I could think of, anti-venom stuff for snake a spider bites. Medical equipment like bandages, morphine, and lots of training. And a shed load of condoms for me and Mrs. Ogg