What happened to 40 caliber?

[Kleanbore]

Okay then. So what are you aiming for? Which body part are you attempting to hit that will stop an attack immediately?

whaterver I can hit, hoping that chance will result in hitting some important things.

Edited to add: how would a bullet that causes more wounding damage not be beneficial for hitting those targets?

That "more wounding damage"may well be infinitesimal. The per-shot "benefit" would likely be immaterial and, if it results in fewer hits and therefore a reduced likelihood of critical hits, the net change in benefit would be negative.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

That's not true. I've seen the slow motion capture of dozens of temporary cavities. Many are larger than the gel blocks themselves. That dye does not represent the temporary cavity. It represents all the places where the gel has torn. A tear is not temporary, it is permanent.

Sadly, a lot of folks, yourself included it appears, don't have the knowledge to accurately interpret the wounding effects depicted in properly prepared and calibrated type 250A ordnance gelatin.

 

[Kleanbore]

The 12th shot disrupted his spinal cord and he immediately collapsed to the pavement. When he hit the ground paralyzed he started gasping for air as his lungs collapsed.

Thanks, Shawn.

What you hit is more important than what you hit with.

Yes indeed, and that is largely a function of chance and of the number of hits.

 

[WrongHanded]

whaterver I can hit, hoping that chance will result in hitting some important things.

That "more wounding damage"may well be infinitesimal. The per-shot "benefit" would likely be immaterial and, if it results in fewer hits and therefore a reduced likelihood of critical hits, the net change in benefit would be negative.

So spray and pray, hoping you can get something done. Check!

You have no idea of how much benefit the extra wounding damage may be, nor how many additional shots a weaker cartridge may afford you. And neither go towards proving the 9mm is just as effective as cartridges that offer more wounding potential.

 

[WrongHanded]

Sadly, a lot of folks, yourself included it appears, don't have the knowledge to accurately interpret the wounding effects depicted in properly prepared and calibrated type 250A ordnance gelatin.

So if I tear something, and then push it back together again, it's not permanently torn? Give me a break. Gel is not a good simulation of various human tissues, but telling me the difference in damage isn't there because that's only the "temporary cavity" is flat out ridiculous.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

So if I tear something, and then push it back together again, it's not permanently torn? Give me a break. Gel is not a good simulation of various human tissues, but telling me the difference in damage isn't there because that's only the "temporary cavity" is flat out ridiculous.

There's a permanent cavity and a temporary cavity.

The permanent cavity is the gelatin/tissue directly contacted and crushed by the handgun bullet as it penetrates.

Whereas the temporary cavity produces cracks in gelatin that many folks misinterpret as a depiction of permanent damage in tissue.

The inaccurate term "wound cavity", used by many, reinforces this misinterpretation.

Injecting food coloring into the wound track also reinforces this misinterpretation.

 

[WrongHanded]

There's a permanent cavity and a temporary cavity.

The permanent cavity is the gelatin/tissue directly contacted and crushed by the handgun bullet as it penetrates.

Whereas the temporary cavity produces cracks in gelatin that many folks misinterpret as a depiction of permanent damage in tissue.

The inaccurate term "wound cavity", used by many, reinforces this misinterpretation.

Injecting food coloring into the wound track also reinforces this misinterpretation.

So explain this to me:

It is well documented that a .430" diameter non-expanding bullet with a flat meplat of .340" in diameter, when driven at 1200fps, is capable of leaving (with repeatability) a wound track in excess of 1" in diameter through deer, elk and other game animals.

If that can happen with a handgun bullet, traveling at a velocity easily achievable in several of the service cartridges, why would you assume an expanding projectiles that reaches a larger diameter, travelling at a similar speed, is incapable of producing wounds of a similar diameter?

Because that's what you're trying to say, isn't it? That service cartridges just poke bullet diameter sized holes?

 

[Kleanbore]

So spray and pray, hoping you can get something done. Check!

Nope. Wrong. That's not it.

You have no idea of how much benefit the extra wounding damage may be, nor how many additional shots a weaker cartridge may afford you.

No. No one does. It has to do with probability. Whatever will be will be.

A "weaker" cartridge? Does it meet the penetration requirements?

 

[WrongHanded]

Nope. Wrong. That's not it.
No. No one does. It has to do with probability. Whatever will be will be.

A "weaker" cartridge? Does it meet the penetration requirements?

Penetration requirements is clearly not the only criteria. If it were, .22lr would be fine. You also want expansion, which is only important for wounding damage. Otherwise a smaller and lighter non-expanding bullet would suffice. Clear you disagree with that concept. You simply favor the balance that 9mm offers you, and wouldn't trade any recoil control for additional wounding. But that does not make 9mm equally effective, it simply means it's the compromise you prefer.

 

[Kleanbore]

Penetration requirements is clearly not the only criteria. If it were, .22lr would be fine. You also want expansion, which is only important for wounding damage. Otherwise a smaller and lighter non-expanding bullet would suffice.

We were speaking of premium duty loads.

But that does not make 9mm equally effective,...

The 9mm with premium defensive loads is known to be effective.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

So explain this to me:

It is well documented that a .430" diameter non-expanding bullet with a flat meplat of .340" in diameter, when driven at 1200fps, is capable of leaving (with repeatability) a wound track in excess of 1" in diameter through deer, elk and other game animals.

If that can happen with a handgun bullet, traveling at a velocity easily achievable in several of the service cartridges, why would you assume an expanding projectiles that reaches a larger diameter, travelling at a similar speed, is incapable of producing wounds of a similar diameter?

Because that's what you're trying to say, isn't it? That service cartridges just poke bullet diameter sized holes?

Why haven't we heard of any tales about 1" diameter police handgun bullet holes in human bodies from medical examiners and trauma surgeons? Or ambulance chasing BLM lawyers like Benjamin Crump?

 

[WrongHanded]

We were speaking of premium duty loads.
The 9mm with premium defensive loads is known to be effective.

Just talking in circle now, aren't you.

I'm not saying the modern 9mm is not effective. I'm simply stating that I don't believe it is as effective as .357sig .40S&W .45acp or 10mm. And that despite other people claiming it actually is, no one seems to be able to offer proof of this, without making arguments that justify switching to .22lr.

And you still haven't managed to do any better this time.

 

[WrongHanded]

Why haven't we heard of any tales about 1" diameter police handgun bullet holes in human bodies from medical examines and trauma surgeons? Or ambulance chasing BLM laywers like Benjamin Crump?

I don't know Shawn, probably because it would be a liability issue. There was a guy claiming to be working with a coroner who was posting regularly about terminal wounding effects of handguns. But as they chose to remind anonymous, probably to protect their job, many dismissed the information.

 

[Elkins45]

I never joined the 40/10 club because I really don’t want to expand my caliber footprint anymore than it already is. I just don’t see enough advantage to add to what I have.

I got on the 40 train when everyone else was getting off. Lots of really nice used guns at bargain prices, and some new ones too. I got a new Kahr K40 (normally a $600 gun) for $302 because nobody was buying them.

 

[someguy2800]

The differences are trivial.

I'm no surgeon, but that doesn't look trivial to me.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I don't know Shawn, probably because it would be a liability issue. There was a guy claiming to be working with a coroner who was posting regularly about terminal wounding effects of handguns. But as they chose to remind anonymous, probably to protect their job, many dismissed the information.

Why do medical examiners state that they cannot tell the difference between bullet wounds of different calibers based on the tissue damage they observe?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm no surgeon, but that doesn't look trivial to me.

Tell us what makes you think that way.

 

[someguy2800]

Tell us what makes you think that way.

You can clearly see the perminant wound cavity is much larger. And yes it is obviously the permanent wound cavity, because if it wasn't permanently torn gel, then the food coloring or dye couldn't penetrate it.

 

[WrongHanded]

Why do medical examiners state that they cannot tell the difference between bullet wounds of different calibers based on the tissue damage they observe?

Which medical examiners would these be? Who are they talking to? They're not sharing data with me. Are they sharing data with you? What measurements are they taking, for what specific cartridges, where in the body, which organs, what is their method of observation to maintain integrity in their data collect and coalition?

Show me, or stop pedalling what you can't prove.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

One would be Vincent DiMaio, M.D., author of Gunshot Wounds.

Others are contributing authors of of the peer reviewed publication Wound Ballistics Review.

I present information to support my claims. You just refuse to be interested in it or your eyes glaze over because it challenges your cherished beliefs..

 

[WrongHanded]

One would be Vincent DiMaio, M.D., author of Gunshot Wounds.

Others are contributing authors of of the peer reviewed publication Wound Ballistics Review.

I present information to support my claims. You just refuse to be interested in it or your eyes glaze over because it challenges your cherished beliefs..

The Wound Ballistics Review is 30 years old. And if it's based on FBI loads like the 158gr LSWC .38spl +p with around 1,000fps velocity, or the 115gr 9mm +p silvertip with around 1150fps velocity, it's no wonder they concluded weak handgun cartridges are weak. Ammo that is pushing around 350ftlbs? Where's the stuff pushing 500ftlbs or more? That's where the difference lies.

It's outdated information based on slow moving projectiles for their weight. Where's the .357 magnum 125gr SJHP running at 1450fps, or the .357 Sig 125gr at 1350fps, or the .40S&W 165gr at 1130fps? Absent.

Times have changed. Ammunition has changed. Yet you still seem to be clinging to your cherished beliefs that what might once have been true of common handgun cartridges, still is today.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The Wound Ballistics Review is 30 years old. And if it's based on FBI loads like the 158gr LSWC .38spl +p with around 1,000fps velocity, or the 115gr 9mm +p silvertip with around 1150fps velocity, it's no wonder they concluded weak handgun cartridges are weak. Ammo that is pushing around 350ftlbs? Where's the stuff pushing 500ftlbs or more? That's where the difference lies.

It's outdated information based on slow moving projectiles for their weight. Where's the .357 magnum 125gr SJHP running at 1450fps, or the .357 Sig 125gr at 1350fps, or the .40S&W 165gr at 1130fps? Absent.

Times have changed. Ammunition has changed. Yet you still seem to be clinging to your cherished beliefs that what might once have been true of common handgun cartridges, still is today.

Hmmm... you mean back when .357 Magnum 125gr JHP was "legendary"?

Or when Duncan MacPherson worked with the California Highway Patrol to improve .40 S&W ammunition and their work directly led to the modern defensive pistol bullets we have today? See: IMPROVED HANDGUN AMMUNITION

All the work IWBA did to dispel wound ballistics myths.

Or the IWBA members that contributed to the Army's new 6.8mm cartridge? See - TIME FOR A CHANGE

For those that are interested, here's a link to just about every issue of Wound Ballistics Review (only Volume 5 Number 2 is missing).

 

[WrongHanded]

Hmmm... you mean back when .357 Magnum 125gr JHP was "legendary"?

Or when Duncan MacPherson worked with the California Highway Patrol to improve .40 S&W ammunition and their work directly led to the modern defensive pistol bullets we have today?

All the work IWBA did to dispel wound ballistics myths.

Or the IWBA members that contributed to the Army's new 6.8mm cartridge?

For those that are interested, here's a link to just about every issue of Wound Ballistics Review (only Volume 5 Number 2 is missing).

I see your name in there Shawn. So point me to some of what must be hundreds of autopsies where the 125gr .357 magnum only made wounds the diameter of the expanded bullet.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I see your name in there Shawn. So point me to some of what must be hundreds of autopsies where the 125gr .357 magnum only made wounds the diameter of the expanded bullet.

PEOPLE VS. CROY, TRIED IN SAN FRANCISCO, APRIL 1990 Croy, the defendant, had shot a police officer through the heart with a 22 rimfire magnum rifle. Croy then turned and ran, but the officer was able to draw his revolver and empty it at his fleeing killer before dying. One of the shots from the officer's .357 Magnum revolver hit Croy in the buttock and passed into his thigh: the leg that was hit was raised and parallel to the bullet' s trajectory when struck. The bullet was a Remington .357 Magnum 125 gr. semi-jacketed hollow point. We had tested this bullet at LAIR and remembered it well since it fragments in a distinctive fashion: the expanding point breaks into large fragments that are unique to this bullet (Fig. 5). This same unique fragmentation pattern was observed on the x-ray of Croy's thigh (Fig 6): the penetration depth measured from the x-ray was also within an inch of that measured in the 10% gelatin block into which one of these bullets had been shot....

...The test of the wound profiles' validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close approximation to the wound profiles....

...The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency (the German 7.62 NATO bullet for example) a good reason was found and when the exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a valid tissue simulant.

-- Fackler, Martin L., M.D., THE WOUND PROFILE & THE HUMAN BODY: DAMAGE PATTERN CORRELATION, WBR V1N4, 1994, pp. 12-19

 

[WrongHanded]

PEOPLE VS. CROY, TRIED IN SAN FRANCISCO, APRIL 1990 Croy, the defendant, had shot a police officer through the heart with a 22 rimfire magnum rifle. Croy then turned and ran, but the officer was able to draw his revolver and empty it at his fleeing killer before dying. One of the shots from the officer's .357 Magnum revolver hit Croy in the buttock and passed into his thigh: the leg that was hit was raised and parallel to the bullet' s trajectory when struck. The bullet was a Remington .357 Magnum 125 gr. semi-jacketed hollow point. We had tested this bullet at LAIR and remembered it well since it fragments in a distinctive fashion: the expanding point breaks into large fragments that are unique to this bullet (Fig. 5). This same unique fragmentation pattern was observed on the x-ray of Croy's thigh (Fig 6): the penetration depth measured from the x-ray was also within an inch of that measured in the 10% gelatin block into which one of these bullets had been shot....

...The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency (the German 7.62 NATO bullet for example) a good reason was found and when the exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a valid tissue simulant.

-- Fackler, Martin L., M.D., THE WOUND PROFILE & THE HUMAN BODY: DAMAGE PATTERN CORRELATION, WBR V1N4, 1994, pp. 12-19

Doesn't mention wound diameter. Only seems to address penetration depth as compared to 10% ballistic gel. Not what I asked. I'm asking about wound diameter. Which was clearly larger than the bullet due to fragmentation.

My point here is that 20+ years ago, these's experts do not seem to be address wound diameter, or the variance in wound diameter between cartridges. Doesn't seem like they were interested.