What happened to Colt?

[YankeeFlyr]

When I was 21, I got my first pistol, a .45 Gov't. Model MkiV/Series 80. When I was 22 or so, I got a Delta Elite, when they first came out...(dates me, I know).

Back then Colt sold AR-15's to everyone.

Now, the Python is out of production; why would they EVER do that...as well as the King Cobra, and Anaconda.

What happened to Colt??? :banghead:

 

[DPris]

The revolver models you mention were not selling well enough to keep in production.
Simple.
Old story.
Denis

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

It's ok they don't make them anymore in my eyes, they just keep going up in value. It's like money growing in the gun safe.

 

[YankeeFlyr]

Yeah, but I had to sell my King Cobra...I'd like another new one...AND...I want a new Python!

I know, look for a NIB online...for the kind of money they cost, I want it new-not-in-someone-else's-storage-conditions. I'm willing to pay for it.

Grrrr!

 

[HDCamel]

They've pretty much realized that they don't have to compete anymore because Colts are always in demand, no matter how ridiculous the prices get or how poorly they treat their consumer base.

They've basically become the American H&K.
No Compromise

Unfortunately, knowing this doesn't prevent me from wanting a genuine Colt 1911 and SAA...

 

[DPris]

Yeah, but too many were not & went elsewhere for revolvers.
Denis

 

[22-rimfire]

You're just going to have to find those Colt DA revolvers gently used or in a condition you are comfortable with on the "used" market. Most people store their Colts fairly carefully. Gun Shops still get them in on consignment and trade. There was a nice Python and Trooper Mark III for sale at one of the local gun shops last time I visited. They actually pop up fairly regularly, but you certainly pay dearly for them.

 

[JohnBT]

Here's a summary, a Newsweek article from 2000 - "Unmaking A Gunmaker"

www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2000/04/16/unmaking-a-gunmaker.html

 

[buck460XVR]

Colt made a business decision to cease production at a time when they needed to do major upgrades in machinery and their manufacturing process to compete in the DA revolver game. This was at a time when demand for revolvers was on the decline and demand for autos and ARs was on the rise. They chose to go where the monies were at the time. It was a choice that kept them in business. Had they had to make that same decision today things may be different. Will they ever make DA revolvers again? I doubt it. My LGS says they sell ten bottom feeders for every revolver they sell. The majority of the revolvers they sell are for hunting purposes, and they are smack dab in the middle of the prime hunting area in the state. I suspect demand for revolvers outside of hunting areas is even less. They other main purpose of the revolvers they sell are for SA cowboy revolvers and Colt still makes those. Thank goodness S&W and Ruger are still healthy.

 

[gym]

I would not be suprised to see them make a "classic line" like Smith did. The money is there now. And those classics are over a grand each, I believe a Detective Special and Python, would sell like hotcakes. Everyone would pick one of their old favorites up , as long as they were competitive. $700.00- $1000, for all the old colts we can't get enough of.
With modern C&C machines I don't think it would costas much to make the guns as it used to. I would gladlly pay 700.0 for an new DS, it was my first carry, in a blue or Nickel. Anacondas, Agents, so many nice guns. Perhaps with optional g10 grips and fibre sights or NS, it could displace the pocket pistols. Don't forget they have to keep making new products in order for people to spend more money.

 

[Old Fuff]

The question of "What happened to Colt," has been hashed out in many previous threads, and you can find them by using the forum's Search Feature.

That said: Colt cannot return the previously mentioned revolvers without going to great expense to retool them. The designs would require extensive hand fitting by highly skilled assemblers that they no longer have. Given the overhead and labor costs the product's cost wouldn't attract a high enough buyer base to support the expense of reintroduction.

They could re-engineer and redesign new revolvers to replace the older discontinued ones, but then the limited number of potential buyers would likely reject them because the were "cheapened junk" and "not what I wanted."

It's hard to take in some quarters, but certain folks need to realize that the day of handcrafted and fitted handguns is over. We now live in an age of CNC machines, cast or punch press internals, and plastic.

 

[SaxonPig]

1. Bad managerial decisions. Too much reliance on military M16 sales and allowing civilian arms manufacturing to become "not a priority." Failure of management to join the 20th century. Too much reliance on hand made guns raised costs and when these artisans died or retired Colt was not in a position to modernize production.

2. Costs. Lots of labor trouble at Colt in the late 1970s and 1980s. A strike and union demands for huge salaries and benefits (which Colt knuckled under to) and wasteful practices made Colts way more expensive than the competition.

3. The 3 most famous Colt products: The 1911, the Single Action Army, the AR15. The 3 most cloned gun designs: The 1911, the SAA, the AR15. Colt was beat in the marketplace by cheaper copies. Hard to sell a genuine Colt SAA for $1400 when Uberti makes one that looks just like it for $400.

Now a nice Python can sell for upwards of $2,000 yet apparently Colt can't make a new one and sell it at a profit. I wish Colt would be purchased by someone who wants to make guns again.

 

[DPris]

Much hashed & re-hashed story, as Fuff points out.

You could not possibly ever see a new DS in original design & quality go for $700, and neither it nor the Python would sell like hotcakes.

About 3 years when I was talking to a Colt VP and a Colt marketing rep about a new Python, they estimated a base price of $1500 for a new Python. I think that was optimistic & don't see a new one going for any less than $2000.
As stated many times before- there simply is not sufficient market for any of the older Colt V-Spring handfitted DA revolvers to come back.

Fuff has it. You won't see it happen.
Colt has said DA revolvers were on the horizon, but if it ever does come about, it'll be something along the lines of the MKV design, built with modern technology-produced parts & a minimum of hand involvement, and intended to compete with Rugers, Smiths, and Tauri. It will not be an expensive niche gun that they can't sell in volume.

As I said- Colt's DA revolvers were dropped because they were not selling well enough to justify continued production.
Denis

 

[C0untZer0]

As I said- Colt's DA revolvers were dropped because they were not selling well enough to justify continued production.
Denis

Colt's DA revolvers were dropped because their production costs were so high that they couldn't price them to sell well enough to justify continued production.

 

[DPris]

Same thing. Doesn't matter how you word it or analyze it, I was giving the bottom line.
Denis

 

[GRIZ22]

FWIW I had occasion to visit both S&W and Colt factories back in the 90s. S&W was CNC machines and very modern. I would say only about one third the floor space was in use. The S&W rep who was showing me around had worked there for about 30 years. He said when he started there S&W had several thousand people in the factory. Now there was less than 1000.

The exterior or Colt looks like a late 1800s factory. So did the interior with the floor jammed with a maze of lathes, drill presses, milling machines, and other machinery.

 

[DPris]

Colt's been out of the old factory for several years & they've modernized machinery greatly in the past few.
Denis

 

[buck460XVR]

they've modernized machinery greatly in the past few.
Denis

One reason the quality of their 1911s has improved lately.

 

[DPris]

The military side got CNC first, because that's where the money was, then the civilian side got CNC in the past couple years.

Even CNC can't make a Python affordable to the mass market, though.
Denis

 

[bluetopper]

I bet union labor demands at the time had a lot more to do with dropping double action revolver production than we will ever know.

 

[Old Fuff]

Indirectly you are correct. Colt's line of revolvers were based on a 1908 - 1950's manufacturing environment and labor/overhead cost picture. Those days are long gone, and not likely to come back. Today nobody, but nobody, makes guns like Colt did "back when," except a few small custom shops that charge very big bucks.

Unfortunately Colt's management failed to see the handwriting on the wall, and you can't blame that on Unions - Although in the long run they killed the goose that laid golden eggs.

What goes around comes around...

 

[hang fire]

]It's hard to take in some quarters, but certain folks need to realize that the day of handcrafted and fitted handguns is over. We now live in an age of CNC machines, cast or punch press internals, and plastic. [/[/I]QUOTE]

You are right, to get the quality of yore, how many would be willing to pay for it.

I was looking at my latest rifle bought, the French Mas 1936. It was the last bolt action main battle rifle designed and produced by any major nation. It was designed to be built cheaply, but without sacrificing quality, using the best machine tools available at the time. IMO the French succeeded, and end result was one of the most functional and efficient bolt action battle rifles ever made.

I use the Mas 1936 rifle as an example of low cost production of the time, cheap then, today it would be totally cost prohibitive to produce.

To reproduce the quality, fit, and finish of a prewar Mauser battle rifle made in their hey day, the cost would be off the charts.

 

[Slamfire]

I talked to a guy who was offered the job as Manufacturing Head at Colt, this would have been early 2000's.

I am certain the people had changed since then.

The plant was run down, old equipment, old methods. The owner had been taking the profits out and running the company into the ground.

The Manufacturing guy said it was all the fault of the owner, made the statement the owner did not even like firearms.


Colt's fall goes back much longer back in my opinion. I can see it in their guns. I was able to amass a small collection of Detective Specials (DS). The late 20's, early 30's DS's are wonderful pieces, they still are up to WWII. Lots of little features, knurling, the finish, the polish, internal parts, outstanding. Fifty’s vintage stuff very good, a little less in the 60's. By the time you get to the 70's you have bright shiny DS's, but the internals are sloppy. Previous versions had nicely machined parts. Probably took the fitter a couple of file swipes and the part fitted.

The later internal parts look like they were carved from soap chunks. It is obvious they were handing the fitter big unfinished parts to file to fit.

This tells me that Colt manufacturing equipment had worn out. Their production processes not under control, this problem extended to our Automobile industry at the time. Cars from the 70’s and 80’s were among some of the worst built ever, the guys in the executive suite were all Business Suites from the Harvard Business Management School. These Harvard MBA’s believed that there was no difference in managing a Potato Chips or Computer Chips after all, Chips are Chips. As GM said back then, “Manufacturing builds it, marketing sells it, and customer service makes it work.”

Colt was going through financial problems in the 80’s, they sold off all of their old parts, and assembled some really awful revolvers. I handled, at a local gunstore, a Colt SAA which the cylinder was 45 and the barrel was 38, and it was new from Colt. Maybe the barrel was 45 and the cylinder 38, but the darn thing had left the factory.

Friend of mine bought a series 80 M1911 Colt Target Master. This is the barrel. See the shadow?, that is in between the locking lugs. Colt must have ringed the barrel milling the recess. And they shipped the thing.

 

[gym]

I get the picture except for one thing. I have heard the story about colt selling off equiptment and most of what has been said. But after working on jets and helicopters, I find it hard to believe that someone can't make a revolver. With all of the computerized machinery available today, are you saying that it's not possible to make a replica of a fairlly simple piece of equiptment?
I say simple compared to many of the weapons of today that far surpass the ability to launch one round at a time. It sounds like no one really has an interest in doing it.
the Rhino, would seem to be a much more difficult gun to design, and yet someone did make it. Why must we stick to the original casts and molds, why not just make new ones.
Once a new mold has been made, would it not be just a manufacturing assemblly line just like any other.
I never saw the handgun as being that complicated once you had the specs to reproduce it. With todays technology, why can't that be done?
We worked on the lunar module when subbing work from republic and Grumman, back in the day, we can make spaceships but not handguns. It sounds strange to me, pardon my lack of knowledge of the revolver, but it's a machine like any other. I think that perhaps when you "whoever" mentioned cost, had a valid point, initially cost would be a factor, but once you got them rolling, your costs would decrease as in any manufacturing situation. There are machiniests out there that can make just about anything, like jessie james makes a custom bike or a custom flute maker makes a custom flute that has a 5 yr wait. That is because there is no real market for those things, as every tom dick and harry isn't going to drop 100 grand on a flute or a violin, or a motorcycle, But once you make the first one and create the molds from it, "or an original mold from an exhisting gun" why is it so hard to do? I'm not being argumentitive I just don't understand why it is so hard.
On that note there are villages in afganistan that make copies of every gun that is popular, by hand, sloppy but they work and they have no equiptment at all. Something is missing here. Granted I am not comparing a junk AK to a Python, but the principal is similar, like the lost wax casting technique

 

[SaxonPig]

S&W can make guns that retail for $800 and so could Colt if they wanted to do it. But they refused to modernize. I'd buy a cnc made Python at $800. All they cared about were military sales. That was management philosophy. They didn't give a rat's ass about the civilian handgun market.