What I want in a Modern Tactical Rifle...

[Wanta B]

Just sitting around day dreaming again,thought I might do a bit out loud.

Well to start I think the Masoud and Masada and the LWRC SABR with Rock River Arms LAR-8 lower...all with 14.5"medium weight and 20"bull barrel uppers would be about perfect but I would have them using as many FAL piston parts as possible and FAL magazines,for spare parts scrounging.I know the LAR-8 uses FAL mags.

7.62x39 would use AK mags even tho' no last shot hold open.
5.56x45 M16 mags.

I am trying to keep it simple at first to save my fingers but I think those weapons and the combination of the latter two would be sweet!What Say You?

Regards
Wanta B

 

[gvnwst]

Well, it doesn't use FAL mags, but POF's P308 rifle uses the gas system from the FAL....just uses DPMS, Armalite, or original AR-10 mags....

For a AR 15 size, the FAL mags wont work, and POF's P-415 is perfect.

 

[Wanta B]

True,and I look at the POF 308 as being very close to ideal...IMO The LWRC SABR is much closer tho'.As I said if one could put the Rock River Arms LAR-8 lower on it I'd might stop there POF 308 with RRA LAR-8 Lower would be next -MSI is working on an AR15 sized 308 using M14 mags,but the larger 308s are fine with me,although one reciever for all WOULD be cool-.I also agree with you about the POF-415. I have one and it is GREAT!

I am realy looking forward to the Masada and Masoud.The way Magpul had them I was sold. Save for not using FAL mags.

I hope those two and the SABR make it to the public!!

I have been keeping an eye open for a POF 308. Can't deside between 14.5" or 18". I have also started looking for an LAR-8 (even a Bushmaster might work).

 

[gvnwst]

really, a 14.5 .308?.......that would not be fun on the ears. IIRC, the LWRC uses a much more complex operating system, that adds another spring to the mix, along with about 5 more parts. The POF uses only the same ones you will have in your '-415 (do you have the 16" or 18"? I love my 18"er) so two more moving parts. What would be the best possible mod of the AR system is a QD barrel system, after the POF piston system. Which is only for us mall ninjas anyhow, who needs a piston? What i would love is for Cobb (or bushy) to come out with the MCR, that would be sweet!

 

[Wanta B]

Mall ninja...I always kind of prefered "gun store commando" myself.

Seriouly tho' I realy do like the direction that things are going in the firearms industry with extream modularity.Much like folks do with ARs I carried two "uppers" for an FAL. One 16" with ACOG and one 21" with an old ART-II.
I am not sure about quick change barrels.Advantages to be sure I just have not warmed up to the idea fully quite yet. Eh,adaptability is key so as long as they are able to keep accuracy thru' repeated change outs...

As to the SABR, I agree that the fewer parts,in general,the better.However other than that the system is nearly the way I would design it.I would like to see ambi-charging handles,forward mounted but I like the FAL charger it has.In that regard and the quick change barrels the Masada/MCR has an edge...well that one is even more adaptable with furnature too.

Ok so SABR upper with POF piston parts -keeping SABR's three posission gas adjust- and RRA's LAR-8 lower...hmmm actualy maybe I do prefer the POF's gas system,especialy the FAL's front piston disassembly.

 

[gvnwst]

I am not sure about quick change barrels.Advantages to be sure I just have not warmed up to the idea fully quite yet. Eh,adaptability is key so as long as they are able to keep accuracy thru' repeated change outs...

Not quick change, quick detach. Quick change is like the MGs use, just off and on, ASAP, don't care about POII shift, we can adjust. Quick detach is like the SCAR, XCR, Masada/ACR, and LMT MRP uppers use, it doesn't come off at once, just faster and way easier than threading.

I dislike the Masada/ACRs foregrip, it doesn't seem all that strong on thre to me. On the MRP, SCAR, or XCR, you could mount 40mm grenade launchers on them, with no problem, but with the attach system and poly construction magpul has in there....?

To use a adjustable system on the POF, jsut install a adjustable FAL plug, that is what has the adjuster in it, but i am not sure if it will fit, due to the low profile block....

 

[Wanta B]

The FAL's gas plug is just a retention device for the most part.The adjust ment comes from the regulator just aft of the gas block that the gas plug locks into from the fore.True the regulator is rather large and would probibly need a relief cut just under it in the barrel to clear to work with the AR's low-pro system,not sure tho'.I would compare them but it will be a few weeks before I get back home.Hmm, I wounder if it would be possible.?. to use the FAL's piston and gas adjustment on a POF? Can you tell me if the POF 308 is "taller" in respect to the bore centerline to piston centerline?

See there are a couple of things on the SABR that I like very much...
1) Charging handle is same as FAL.
2)Because of FAL type charging handle the rear of the reciever is closed so NO GAS in your face when using a silencer.
3)Total gas shut off,single shot capable with just a quick turn of a switch.

Note- I like the M4 "platform" but I do not like the charging handle and DI....DI is fine in most cases but will NOT deal with much of the crud ammoe I end up having to use,nor sudmerge and fire.Two EXTREAMLY important points for me.Not for all to be sure but for me piston is THE only way to go.


I have not actualy used nor held a Masada but I have used polys that are hands down more robust than almost any aluminums,not to mention the temerature,both hot and cold,control,ie. burn skin and freeze same.The overall system looks great to me tho'.

 

[gvnwst]

My memory is that the regualtor is part of the plug.....so in effect, with the properly designed block, the plug could be installed and voila!, adjustment!

I have no clue whether the P308s centerline is higher, but i dought it. I might buy a adjustable FAL plug sometime and see if it will work...

The charging handle on the AR series is annoying, but i think that the buffer tube is a bigger dis-advantage. Be pretty easy to make a upper that uses a different charging handle, but most people wouldn't care.

Not sure if they could handle the shock of a rail mounted 40mm launcher, be cool if it could.

 

[Wanta B]

True,gas does chanel thru' the plug.Still need the regulator unless you are saying a block with severalsettings to turn the plug to.That may work.I have seen many rifles that would allow a person to twist the gas plug out freely once past the "locked" posission tho'.That would make me nervous.

I hear ya' on both the buffer tube and the fact that most M4/AR Files seem to love and or do not care about the charging handle.

I was thinking -dangerous- that with a bigger 308 bolt carrier that the centerlines may be farther apart.Unfortunately I can not confirm.Boy if one could use FAL piston parts in a POF 308..!!

 

[gvnwst]

My understanding of the FALs system is that the plug has all the adjustment in it, you just plug it in, the block has no adjustment. The adjustment lever is on the plug, not the block. This is what a friend who owns a FAL told me, i have never seen (in person) the adjustment system, i have not gotten to take his gun apart yet.

Yes, you are probably right, but i don't know if it would be enough, again, i don't know if the adjustment system needs a different block......

If anyone has a FAL and would like to help, please do.

 

[Wanta B]

I've got six not two feet from me.

More like four feet.

 

[gvnwst]

Can you try it in your POF? Awnser some questions...

 

[Wanta B]

Unfortunately I can not.My POF is back home and I will not be for many weeks yet.But...

The FAL's and POF's gas plugs are very similar.As I take it you wanted me to try the FAL's in the POF? If they are the same size then the centerlines should work and with a custom gas block or maybe just the POF's,some minor mods to the barrel nut and perhaps the gas cylinder from a FAL...Adjust distance accordingly and all the FAL piston parts should work.Could even use DSA's short or a cutdown for carbine types.

Speaking of barrel nuts I REALY like POF's heat sink !

 

[gvnwst]

I am pretty sure you know, but the POF uses the regular FAL gas plug, according to them. So, unless the gas block has to be different to accept the adjustable plug, it should work.

I would love for POF to get some sort of QD system built into that heat sink, it is way big enough....

 

[UnTainted]

I want ammo in it!!!

 

[Wanta B]

You know,I've never hade them together and apart at the same time nor paid enough attention to notice that they were anything other than very similar.... So they are the same!? Well,then this may work indeed!

Man now I am going to have to locate an RRA LAR-8 AND a POF 308 ! I seriously doubt they will just "fit" together but were there is a will...kind of like welding and machining a race car head.

AMMO?!...Indeed! LOL...smart a...woops! I was kind of wondering when something like that was going to come up.

 

[gvnwst]

For now, see if it fits in your P-415, IIRC they use the same parts, i will check that later.... If it does work, please post results

 

[Wanta B]

The P-415 and P-308 use the same piston parts? Well I supose that makes sence as they seem to use the same rail systems.

I will post results but it will be quite awhile.At least 12 weeks.However it turns out you bet I 'll post results.At this time I am quite comitted to this...This has drifted a bit from the OP,oh well.

Sugestions on quick detach? I am still not quite sold on it but it would be cool.

 

[gvnwst]

Well, i have looked into this, and while magpuls system for the masada looks really nice (ratcheting, toolless) i am not sure about what happens if the "button" thingy gets damaged, i have never held one though, so all i have is pics. The systems used by "all" the other companies seem to use 1-4 allen bolts, which seems stronger to me....even though it requires a allen bolt, you can either carry one,, or at that second you shouldn't be changing barrels. Make it a good, standard size that is used in automotive applications a lot, just for good measure.

 

[Wanta B]

Hmm,I think that I may be in agreement with you on that point.I am in the same boat as you with not actualy messing around with the Masada.Jurry is still out. I still want one or two should the first prove it's worth.I have to admit that I have NOT looked into QD barrels other than in passing.Infact tho' I do have a take down 1892 levergun I never got into it.All my bolt guns have solid mount barrels even when given the choice.

 

[gvnwst]

I would say, in bolts, that AI's system is about right, bt semis, it is harder....is it really worth the toolless to have a little more POI shift? And i am not sure if it even does, becasue the Masada barrel pratically screws in, with just a holder. IIRC, the others just have the barrel sitting there and screw tighten it, the actually threaded part on the Masada seems nicer.....

 

[Wanta B]

I do like how the Masada ratchets/screws in place.POI change is one of my big hang ups about QD barrels.I suppose that if your barrel goes south then it would be nice or in a mega modular system like the Masada.Then it is kind of a give and take.They may be onto something with their system tho'.It is the first one to catch my attention in nearly twenty years.But then again their QD was only one aspect and not the mane thing to garner my attention.Well not until I saw some clips of it on youtube.Man seeing it switched from one caliber to the next and several barrel lengths...VERY cool if it works and I definately want to find out with a Masada of my own.

One of the nice things about the M4 and FAL is the ability to have two uppers already sighted in so QD to fit the situation is fast AND acurate. IT is too bad that FALs have the sereal # on the upper! Just as a side note one of the FALs I have will keep 1/3" three shot groups on the 100m mark with almost anything ya' feed it.21" Free Flaoting Fluted BB SPR.I'd like to get a Magpul stock for it.I'd prefer Flat Dark Earth tho' and it only comes in black I think.

On the uppers/QD barrel deal,I realy like the idea of MULTI-CALIBER,ie 500 beowolf,450 Bushmaster,etc. to suppliment the main caliber.Now on THAT point I could see the benefit to a QD barrel so long as POI shift was not bad...so keep a complete upper 20" precision and short combat lower to QD with heavy calibers.

 

[gvnwst]

Well, if you think about it, the barrel shift is only when you install a new one, so it is the same as if you swapped threaded barrels, but WAY easier. If you are thinking about POI as in a bunch on MOA, QD systems are usually within 1 MOA, if not 1/2MOA. So, not bad at all!



I don't think that anyone is going into battle witha few uppers, but for us civies, that is really nice.

 

[Regig]

QD vs. QC: which requires tools?

 

[gvnwst]

Depends. Some QD systems require then, some do not. (SCAR vs Masada) *Usually* QC systems are the 2 sec toolless design for HMGs, but those have quite a bit of POI shift.