What if John M. Browning was not mandated to ...

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euclid

euclid

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What if John M. Browning was not mandated to...chamber his now famous 1911 Automatic Colt Pistol for a .45 caliber cartridge? Would some other gun manufacturer had created a .45 ACP-type pistol anyway (assuming that they were given no mandate to do so, of course). What I have noticed in the literature I have read suggests that most of Browning's previous pistol designs were essentially small caliber pocket models. Even his last great pistol design, the P35 or Browning High Power, was chambered for 9mm and I have read that it was by HIS DESIGN to chamber it for a smaller caliber cartridge (i.e. 9mm Luger).

So, with no government mandate to chamber his 1911 design for .45 caliber, what may have transpired in terms of the types of pistol cartridges that would have evolved? We know that 9mm Luger is alive and well, but would the .38 Super have evolved to be the modern day equivalent of the .45 ACP (i.e. "America's cartridge")? There seems to be some consensus that the .40 S&W was designed to be a compromise between the 9mm and the .45 ACP but with no .45 ACP to define the one end-member, would it have evolved at all? With no .40 S&W, where would that have left the .357 SIG?

I know we can't know the answers to these questions but I am a counterfactual history buff (i.e. the "what ifs" of history) so here goes:

My guess is that many of these cartridges would have evolved anyway, but the timing may have been drastically different. I suspect that the .38 Super would have enjoyed more popularity and may have become the "American 9mm Luger" and a .40 caliber 'something' would have evolved earlier than it did.

What do you think?
 
Close, but...

There seems to be some consensus that the .40 S&W was designed to be a compromise between the 9mm and the .45 ACP but with no .45 ACP to define the one end-member, would it have evolved at all? With no .40 S&W, where would that have left the .357 SIG?
Click to expand...

The .40 S&W, often referred to as "The .40 Short & Weak" (myself included), came about as a successor to the 10mm FBI low-recoil load. S&W just shortened up the 10mm, which allowed the new round to fit a wider variety of guns. To those of us who own 10mm's, the .40 S&W most definitely is a compromise cartridge. :D

Firefighter is correct, the .38 ACP was already well established by the time the 1911 came around. So (hypothetically) without the introduction of the .45 ACP, perhaps the .38 Super *may* have seen daylight much sooner.
 
Don't forget Buckaroos & Buckarettes that the west was won with .44s and .45s.

Someone would have eventually chamber one of those new fangled self-shuckers in a .44 or .45 before too long.
 
I don't think the .38 Super would have "come along" if the Model 1911 platform had not come into being. The old double link guns just would not handle anything like the .38 Super.

So, without the .45 "mandate", would there have been a Model 1911, or would the government have adopted the Luger? Would the Savage pistol have worked better with a smaller cartridge? If the Model 1911 had come along, would it have been for .38 Super or for something else, like the 9mm Parabellum? Would it then have been smaller and lighter?

The .45 "mandate" grew out of American experiences with Moslem warriors (sound familiar?) in the Philippines; so unless our game playing eliminates the Spanish-American War, and the Philippine experience, the .45 mandate would still exist.

Interesting game, but no one can really answer those questions.

Jim
 
Mr Browning designed guns to sell. Once the basic autopistol was established in the market, I expect he would have designed what Colt and FN said was needed. As was the case for the BHP. He designed it in 9mm because FN wanted it that way for a French contract, not because he wanted to "do" a 9mm of his own. The French didn't want an American-Belgian gun in a German caliber, they went with an in-house design by Petter and the weird little 7.65 Longue, ex .30 Pedersen Device, and it was only 7 years later after Mr Browning's death that the BHP was put into production. With a lot of changes by D. Saive of FN.
 
Blues bear, he does - the name 'Moro" comes from the same root as 'moor" in Spanish. the southern Phillipines (Mindinao et al.) tribes were mostly Muslim, that area having been converted by Arab/Mogul/Persian sea traders a few hundred years before the Portugese and Spanish wandered in and the latter settled in Luzon (Manila); the Spanish gradually expanded south (mostly to protect their flank from the Java/Borneo/Malay/Sulu Sea Muslim and animist pirate clans - which had driven the SW Asian traders away already) and the US acquired the conflict along with the territory in 1898.

The Spanish called the southern tribes Moros generically, and the Catholic-Spanish north still does; they don't call themselves Moros, but it was a shorthand for all the clans who ALWAYS opposed the Luzon government and still do - Spanish, American or Filipino, they're all foreign infidels to the southerners.

OTOH, the only thing the Mindinao/Sulu Sea Filipinos hate more than the Manila government is the certainty that Malaysia or Indonesia would annex them if they ever did get full independence, so MOST of them are content to work for as much autonomy as possible whil retaining Phillipine nationality.
 
Correct on all points regarding the old 'Moros' in our south, tc.

IMHO, even if you historically delete the episode with Spain and the Philippines, the US was flexing its might and expansionist policy would have come into the picture sooner or later. If not the Moros, it would have been some other determined opponent, and you're back to the .45 ACP.

The 1911 in .45 ACP was simply meant to be.
JMB was meant to design it.
Works for me.

(heck, as a Filipino, I could almost say it works ON me, but.. hehe...)
:what:
 
.45 LC

Actually, it was the .45 Long Colt, for revolvers, that was the direct reponse to the Moro warriors. At first, American soldiers of that era used .38 revolvers, which were found to have insufficient stopping power against the Moros.

So later on, when the army decided it wanted an autoloader, the size of the round was kept at .45.

I'm Filipino too. The .45ACP remains the cartridge of choice in the Philippines, and 1911A1 clones are the most popular guns in use to this day. There are 9mms around, especially among the police; but most civilian shooters and criminals prefer the .45ACP and the 1911A1 pattern gun.
 
tcdrennen,

I'm impressed about your knowledge about our country's history. :cool:

Explains a lot as to why until now, the struggle in the southern Philippines continues...

As to the timing of the 45ACP's inception, I'm with bluesbear on this. I guess it would have been developed anyway, whether if be during the war with the Moros or with somebody else... ;)

Just my thoughts...
 
I also agree with the notion that the .45 would have come to be. A good strong platform for a rugged service pistol. Although, I image the discussion going something like this: U.S. Army:"We want a .45LC to come out of an automatic pistol platform so we could carry one more round of ammo and ease reloading." JMB:"No problem" :)
 
Horge & newcomer-

Thanks - I am an addict for history, but need more study on SE Asia and the Pacific Islands. I spent a few months in the Phillipines a few decades ago (Subic/Olongapo/Manila with side trips to San Miguel) and some time in Singapore later.I regret now not having done more historical/archaeological site exploring.

My next door neighbors are Filipino, and before he died last year I had some great conversations with the wife's dad - he had been a member of the Scouts and a guerilla during WWII, later a professional jazz bassist. He was also a very good poker player :rolleyes:

I do see a lot of Filipino members on the 1911 Forum, probably more there than any other non-USA group. And, of course, the Armscorp products are fairly well respected as good basic 1911 platforms, so the enthusiasm goes beyond just end users! :D

The Armscor ammo is a good bang for the buck, too! A little dirty, but reliable and well priced. What do you guys use for your basic 230 gr FMJ ammo over there?

Tara
 
A quick augmentation to a few of these posts: About one hundred years ago -- in the aftermath of the Spanish American War -- the US Army was involved in a VERY difficult guerrilla war in the Southern Philippines. At that point, the standard sidearm was a .38 revolver, which proved woefully inadequate. The Army in the Philippines called for -- and received -- used .45 “long†Colt revolvers (from storage) that proved far more effective. Therefore:
a) The old story re Browning’s 1911 stopping the guerillas is a myth; the Colt Automatic’s acceptance by the Army dates from 1911, long after the Philippine Revolution was over.
b) Browning's 1911 design (as eventually accepted by the Army) was specifically intended to closely replicate the .45 “long†Colt revolver’s ballistics, due to its proven -- including the Philippine’s insurrection -- potency.
 
Back to JMB, I understand that he'd already designed the cartridge and gun before the government put out their standards. He therefore only had to refine and modify his 45 pistol which had already been in production. This was the 1905 if memory serves. Many internals were similar if not virtually identical to the later pistol. I've got a picture too.

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a) The old story re Browning’s 1911 stopping the guerillas is a myth; the Colt Automatic’s acceptance by the Army dates from 1911, long after the Philippine Revolution was over.
Click to expand...
That's one myth I have NEVER heard anyone repeat.

It is unuversally accepted that the Moro Insurrection was the reason the US Army accepted the M1909 Colt New Service revolver in .45 Colt.

The swing out cylinder had problems ejecting the original Military ammunition becaue the rim was so small. The military solution was to increase the size of the rim for reliable extraction. The problem with this was that the larger rim size meant that only every other chamber in the Colt SA 1873 and DA 1877 revolvers, that had been reissued, could be loaded. Which it why, still to this day, the .45 Colt round has a rim only slightly larger than a .44 Special
 
RWK:

Despite being from dubious sources, the first article states that:
The famed Colt .45 pistol was invented specifically to knock down sword-wielding Moro warriors whose courageous but suicidal attacks gave us the Malay term, `running amok.
Click to expand...
While not completely correct, it's still true that the Colt 1911 was in response to that incident. The next article is correct in quoting an Army source:
"A Moro who has worked himself up to religious fanaticism goes forth to kill all unbelievers in Mohammadanism until he himself is killed. It took some killing. Capt Wood watched as a Moro rushed out of the tall grass ... and made a beeline for one of our flankers. The man emptied his rifle into the Moro, but he came bounding on and did not stop ... That was why the War Department recalled its .38 caliber Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers from the Philippines and substituted the heavier Colt .45 [for its superior stopping power]."
Click to expand...
That's Colt 45 revolver, not pistol. Note that this quote recalls a RIFLE being emptied inot the Moro but fails to state which rifle of what caliber. I can only assume it was a Krag. The third article merely restates what the second article states.

I've never heard from any source other than earlier in this thread that the 1911 was teleported back in time to defeat the Moro's. Sounds like a transmogrification of the actual events to me.
 
tcd,
Armscor FMJ is the most inexpensive, with Fiocchi hardball, PMC and S&B FMJ coming close behind. Remington and Winchester can cost more than twice as much, depending on the vendor.



Regarding Filipino Moro/Muslim ferocity, watching one turn juramentado or go amok is a pretty frightening thing. Only saw it once, quite some time back, in the small, dingy Muslim quarter in Quiapo --over an accusation that he had cheated a Christian customer out of 4 pesos change (maye 20 cents US at the time).

The customer was hacked to death and one of the responding policemen sustained a life-threatening wound to the neck. Lots of gunfire before the machete-wielder was put down. He was a fairly thin, aged piece of work at that. A retaliating busload of cops really went to town on the Muslim community that very afternoon.

Never been back to that part of town since.
 
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