What info does a gun merchant require from a buyer?

[hindubandit]

Hi, I'm looking to buy my first gun. I am also a bit cautious with personal information I give out - my name, age, etc. Ideally I'd like to buy with no permit, info, id, or any questions asked (supposably only possible in vermont).

I read that merchants have to keep record of all their sales? What info do these records require?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If you buy from a gun store or federal firearms licensee, you will have to fill out a federal form. It is form 4473. You will have to provide your full name, DOB, race, sex, height, weight, full address, and place of birth. Then you will get to answer a variety of questions, most of which deal with criminal convictions, drug use, etc. Then they will need to see your Driver License, and often the store will photo copy it. Sometimes they also ask for a phone number. Then they will call the federal government and do an instant check on you.

If you buy from a private individual, then there is not much to do in most free states other than exchange the gun and the money. Sometimes private sellers want to write out a bill of sale, and sometimes they don't.

 

[hindubandit]

Ha. So basicly it's like applying for a federal job, I might as well offer my dna sperm ss fingerprints as well. What a crock of ****. Atleast that eliminates the need to go to Vermont, I'll buy one privately.

Do they keep record for the feds of what kind of gun was purchased?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Yes, form 4473 will have all your data, plus the information about the gun, including manufacturer, type of gun, serial number, caliber, etc. The form will be kept indefinitely by the gun store. The ATF can request to look at it if they want. If the store goes out of business, they have to send the form to the ATF.

I think after about 20 years, a gunstore can destroy the record if it wants to.

 

[hometheaterman]

I see no reason not to fill out the form unless you have a felony or something like that in which case you can't own a gun anyway.

 

[Rockwell1]

I think it's a legitimate question. Every single gun I own was purchased in a private sale with no paperwork

So it's not a huge stretch for me when someone else wants to do the same thing

 

[marv]

Why are you so secretive about buying a gun?

 

[Rockwell1]

Why are you so secretive about buying a gun?

What's secretive about finding a gun I like in the newspaper or, waaay back in the day, at a gunshow and purchasing it via private sale?

I don't think it's the Goverment's business what guns I (do or don't ) own.

 

[Trebor]

Before you buy a firearm in a private transaction, make sure that is legal in your state. Some states require all firearms transfers go through a Federal Firearms License (FFL) dealer. In that case the seller would transfer the gun to the FFL dealer, who would then do the paperwork to transfer the gun to you.

Also, some states require a mandatory "Firearms Owner ID" card or something similiar. That is basically a state level permit required before you can possess any firearm, even if bought from a private person.

Since you didn't post what state you are in, I can't comment on your specific state law. But, you do need to check your state laws and make sure your purchase is legal. Different states have different laws.

 

[sernv99]

So basicly it's like applying for a federal job, I might as well offer my dna sperm ss fingerprints as well. What a crock of ****.

yeah, it's a crock of **** that there are rules in place to help hinder persons from owning a firearm if they have a criminal felony conviction or have been committed to a mental institution in the past. Not everyone lives in VT where a person only has to worry about his/her cows being stolen.

 

[divemedic]

The 4473 must even be filled out in VT.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Not everyone lives in VT where a person only has to worry about his/her cows being stolen.

All federal laws apply in Vermont, the last time I checked.

 

[jackstinson]

Hi, I'm looking to buy my first gun. I am also a bit cautious with personal information I give out - my name, age, etc. Ideally I'd like to buy with no permit, info, id, or any questions asked

You want to buy a gun, but don't want to give anyone your name and age?
Yep...I'd be cautious also....cautious about selling a gun to you.
It's not a big deal to me. I have guns I bought face-to-face with just a money transaction, I have guns for which a piece of paper resides in someone's file for posterity....no biggie.

 

[rbernie]

Ideally I'd like to buy with no permit, info, id, or any questions asked (supposably only possible in vermont).

Most states allow face-to-face deals. These sales must comply with Federal and state law in terms of not allowing a prohibited person to obtain the firearm, but they do not have the paperwork requirements of a dealer transaction. Many private sellers maintain their own bills-of-sale, but it's not required by law for them to do so.

Every dealer (FFL holder, be it a pawn shop or a gun store or other) is mandated to keep a paper record consisting of a bound book for inventory purposes and the 4473s themselves. These 4473s are kept by the dealer, not the government, but the dealer effectively must allow the .gov to search thru them upon request.

If you're a prohibited buyer - don't be sniffin' around here. We do not condone nor support illegal activities on THR.

If you are not a prohibited buyer and simply value your privacy, then you will need to conduct a face-to-face deal with a private seller. The trick is to find the weapon that you want, and to find a buyer who does not encumber the deal with a bill-of-sale.

I buy and sell firearms via FTF transaction a fair bit. I usually ask the buyer to show me their state drivers license (to verify their age and that they're a resident of my state - both Federal requirements) and ideally to show me their CHL (indicating that they're not a prohibited person in any other way). Having seen that documentation, I do not record it nor feel the need to keep a record. I have done what is required - verified the legal standing of the buyer. When buying, I always offer to show my DL and CHL, to provide the seller with the legal cover that they need to be able to state that they did not knowingly sell a firearm to a prohibited person.

Ideally I'd like to buy with no permit, info, id, or any questions asked

This is a warning sign to many that you are not an eligible buyer. Most any eligible buyer, even those desiring privacy, will be willing to SHOW their ID to the seller for the purposes of conforming to Federal law.

So basicly it's like applying for a federal job, I might as well offer my dna sperm ss fingerprints as well.

Keep your spoodle to yourself, please. We run a family-oriented web forum here.

 

[22-rimfire]

I might as well offer my dna sperm ss fingerprints as well. What a crock of ****.

Your comment seems a bit extreme to me especially considering it is your second post here. In my state, if you purchase a firearm from a FFL dealer, your thumb prints are taken and the NICs check is done after completing Form 4473. There is a movement to eliminate the requirement for the thumb prints as it is not required by the Federal government or currently used for any identification purposes. This is a hold over of the law prior to the Brady Bill being passed whiich made the NICs check Federal law.

As stated, the FFL dealer will retain the completed Form 4473 for his records. The dealer may encourage you to include you social security number as well. Most holdups in the NICs check are related to the database not being able to distinguish people with common names and the SSN helps to eliminate that issue.

I would suggest you visit a gun shop and talk to the owner about the process and whether or not there are any restrictions or additional paperwork required when buying a firearm in your state. Some state's have additional requirements which may or may not be offensive to you.

I also insist on identification prior to a face to face sale. I record the buyers name, address, DL#, and other relevant information for my records. Otherwise I won't sell to an individual. I also ask the more significant questions that are included in Form 4473. The law is the same for face to face sales as it is for ones from a FFL dealer in terms of the buyer being able to own a firearm legally. The only difference is the required paperwork and NICs check.

 

[deadin]

re Keeping a record of a private sale. I always keep a record of the person I sell a gun to just in case it ever comes of interest to the authorities and is somehow traced back to me. I want to be able to send the bloodhounds on down the road.
If the buyer balks at providing ID, they can go look for a different seller. There's always other buyers out there that aren't quite as paranoid.

 

[Mohawk]

Something tells me we've seen the last of "Hindu Bandit". Just a hunch I have.

 

[CWL]

Atleast that eliminates the need to go to Vermont, I'll buy one privately.

This guy is purposely trying to get around his local laws, including willingness to go out of state to purchase a firearm(s). Sometimes, there are some people who shouldn't own. This guy seems like someone who can't own legally for some reason, or is a dumb kid wanting a gun to prove how tough he is.

 

[rbernie]

I'm operating under the presumption that HinduBandit doesn't *know* the laws of the land.

Rather than poke at that - let's try to educate.

 

[hindubandit]

First off thanks for the first hand info and I wish people could understand not everyone trusts authorities and the right for an upstanding citizen to own a gun is a right, not a privilege. I reside in n.j. where only deer hunters, thugs, and police have weapons and you would be hellbent to legally own a handgun. Even bb guns and air guns are classified firearms. Not even butterfly knifes are available unless u go to the flea market and get lucky, even then don't be caught with it.

The truth is I'm very concerned about this new upcoming young civilian army under obama to possibly start knocking door to door to take our guns, but if the whole world from local police department to ATF doesn't know u have one, then they won't try to take it. I have no problem offering my urine sample or whatever so long as I'm sure not to be treated like a criminal just for owning a gun for the sake of owning a gun rather I think they're pretty or collectibles or I enjoy target practise. All I want is a silver brown handle single cock .22 revolver, like the toy I had as a child playing cowboys and indians.

I think my best bet is to have my out of state bud order one and let me play with it every now and then when I visit (pityful I know).

 

[highorder]

I think you should read and understand the laws in New Jersey.

I reside in n.j. where only deer hunters, thugs, and police have weapons and you would be hellbent to legally own a handgun.

I can assure you, it is legal to own a handgun in New Jersey, provided you abide by state and federal law.

If you are concerned with what may happen in the future, you should head over to the Activism forum and get involved in protecting our freedoms.

If you want a toy to play with, get a squirt gun. Firearms come with responsibility.

 

[Macmac]

Buying a 'long gun', which is all the Fed get in a NICS check, meaning you bought a rifle or a shot gun is legal in states you don't reside in.

But buying a 'hand gun', meaning revolver, or a 'pistol', meaning a semi auto, out of the state you reside in is a Fedral Sin.

In order to legally buy a hand gun/ pistol that is in Vt, you must go to a dealer (FLL) and he will do the paper work needed to get the gun into NJ, where you can pick it up. Most any FLL dealer does this for a fee, and the fee can varry, as it is set up by the particular FFL Dealer.

Once more going to out of state to buy any hand held gun, not a long gun is a Fedral Sin.

The Feds get the info given them which better be correct, as any lie is as SIN.

The Feds do not know the make, model, year of manufactor or caliber. All they get is your name, your physical adress, your SS number if you give it and if you do it will prevent anyone with a similar name. Whether or not you are a citizen of the USA, and where you were born.

If you are a felon, or other wise restricted it is a felony to fill out the form in the first place. I am not picking on you, just telling it the way it is.

The only option you have is a in state private buy from another private individual. And if I were you at the barest minimum I would want a receipt with the sellers ID, and some way to make contact with him in the event the gun is stolen, or has been already used in a crime.

I have bought and sold guns as private sales and record each one.

Driving to Vt from NJ is a waste of gas.

 

[rbernie]

And on that note, let's draw this to a close.

The Legal forum has a sticky at the top with the Federal Gun laws attached, if anyone wants more details. The NRA web site also has a good synopsis:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/

 

[hindubandit]

Macmac ..
You said the dealer FLL can do paperwork to get it into n.j. and I pick it up.. Pick it up from where? Vermont? What does that do? Let me skip the step of getting (probably not getting) a permit to buy in nj?

I think it's reasonable to give a private seller my info, but legally I think I'll still need a permit which defeats trying to stay legal and own, otherwise if found I could end up in jail.

 

[PT1911]

I will never understand why people are so hesitant to fill out the paperwork necessary to buy a gun from a retailer... what is the big deal? if you have nothing to hide, the damn papers are a small price to pay to get the gun you want. If you have something to hide, you shouldnt be buying anyway...


the government isnt sitting back waiting for a shop to call in with your name so they can come arrest you and take all your guns...

if it scares you so very much, buy a used gun from an individual for more than you would pay new and lose any warranty that may be on that gun (most manufacturers)

I suppose you dont have a driver's license either and I dont want to even ask about a CCW permit....