i dont understand why you cant buy a firearm across state lines if buying from an ffl dealer. you still have to get a federal background check & since its "federal" i assume its from a national data base. so what is the difference between buying from one state or another?
Educate me on the gunshow "loophole"
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jr_roosa
Member
It's really state-dependent. When I lived in California, handgun (and maybe long gun?)transfers except transfers between family members had to go through a dealer.
The same state resident transfer rule is federal, so that applies everywhere.
I don't know the state-by-state requirements specificially for the other rules you mentioned, but I believe almost anywhere you will run afowl of the law if you transfer a gun to anybody who you should have know was not allowed to buy it from you. Certainly if he says, "good thing I don't have to do a backgound check, cuz I'd never pass one of those" you are setting yourself up for a problem.
Remeber that there are laws that you can be arrested and tried for as a criminal, AND you can be sued in civil court by anybody who thinks you did something wrong and hurt them in some way.
If somebody buys a gun from you and does something stupid with it, and, say, he was a felon or psychotic or under a restraining order, it would probably be hard to prosecute you for breaking a law unless he told you all of that stuff. On the other hand, you might have to lawyer up to fight a civil suit against whoever he hurt.
Would you rather fight that case with "I don't know who he was, he paid cash in the parking lot and that's good enough for me." Or, "I met him at his house, he seemed like a very reasonable person, I asked specific questions about if he was allowed to own a gun, he showed me ID to prove that he was who he said he was, and here's the reciept we both signed. What else could I have done?"
In my case, I'd say, "Geez, I didn't know that guy from Adam, so we headed down to the gun shop and I had the guy there do the backgound check and fill out the transfer form. Here's a copy of the reciept." That also keeps me from having to worry about any state or federal laws because the deal is going through an FFL.
-J.
jr_roosa
Member
It's just how the law is. Congress can regulate interstate commerce, and so it used that power to regulate firearms transfers. It would regulate firearms transfers between residents of the same state if it could, but it can't. Individual states set those rules, so they are different from state to state.
-J.
KodiakBeer
member
And that's a damned shame. By the same logic, if you sold a car to somebody who turned out to be an alcoholic and kills somebody, then YOU should share responsibility. Give somebody a book of matches who then uses it to smoke crack...
This all arises out of the liberal philosophy that individuals aren't entirely responsible for their own actions. Or, more precisely; the age-old disagreement between the individualist and the collectivist. I know what side I'm on.
ATBackPackin
Member
So it sounds like to me that it is the intention of some to scapegoat gun shows instead of puting the blame where it belongs, on the criminals whom break the law, and using this false information to inject fear into the uninformed so they can make more laws that the criminals will break anyway???
Is that close?
Shawn
Is that close?
Shawn
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The current set of antigunners are becoming more sophisticated. They realize that FFLs can't sell without checks but now argue that gunshows are attractive nuisances that facilitate illegal sales by making it easier to meet.
That argument was recently used in Austin, TX and unfortunately, it does happen. Gun show promoters have to be very careful to discourage such or have their legit operation shut down.
That argument was recently used in Austin, TX and unfortunately, it does happen. Gun show promoters have to be very careful to discourage such or have their legit operation shut down.
22-rimfire
Member
That is essentially true as far as I'm concerned.
In PA, you may not sell a "handgun face to face" without going though a FFL dealer who will charge a fee and a NICs check will be run on the buyer. As I understand it, the buyer willl have to complete the Form 4473 at the time of the transfer and then the NICs check is run. Only very close family members (bloodwise) are excluded from this requirement in PA.
I have not been to a gunshow in PA but legally speaking all handguns must be run through a FFL dealer or I believe police or court house where a NICs check is run on the buyer.
All the other laws are the same for the most part in PA as most other states.
There is no loophole. Firearms are being bought and sold legally. Nobody from NY state can purchase a handgun in PA without transferring it through a dealer in NY and they would have to be otherwise qualified to purchase the gun. As I understand it, there are permits and such prior to purchase in places like NYC.
A NY resident may purchase a long gun however in PA just like I can purchase a long gun in KY or GA from a FFL dealer.
KodiakBeer
member
That's frightening! Are the laws really that strict down there? You can't just put an ad in the paper or pin up an ad at the grocery store to sell a gun?
ATBackPackin
Member
Here is what I found here. http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm
Which sounds exactly like what 22-rimfire said unfortunately.
Shawn
You may buy a long gun from a dealer in a state not your state of residence, if it is legal to own in your state. You may not buy a handgun from any dealer except in your state (if you buy it somewhere else, it has to be shipped to a dealer in your state).
The federal laws are predicated on control of interstate commerce and helping states enforce their own laws. But they do so by establishing, taxing, and regulating a system of federally licensed gun dealers. Originally, it was felt that the federal government had no authority to control transactions by non-dealers within a state, so sales by individuals to individuals are not controlled.
The "gun show loophole" is simply an attempt to impose further federal controls in an area previous lawmakers considered a state matter. The usual approach is to require the gun show promoter to obtain a special license that would allow federal law enforcement to arrest anyone selling or attempting to sell a gun on the "licensed premises" and/or make the promoter liable for any illegal transactions.
Yes, some states do ban individual sales of handguns, and that applies to gun shows as well; transactions have to go through a licensed dealer. Most show dealers will handle the transaction for a fee, just like internet sales, but it is a costly nuisance, and there seems little or no evidence that it reduces crime or keeps guns out of the wrong hands.
(Needless to say, the gun control movement, being essentially racist, considers the "wrong hands" to be black; unfortunately even some Uncle Toms have bought into the idea that being black is somehow evil and that deprivation of rights is acceptable. The supposed concern over terrorism is simply another ploy by the gun ban gang; first it was juvenile delinquents, then Black Panthers, then the KKK, then "militias", then terrorists; whatever the excuse, the goal - total and complete disarmament of the American people, followed by total government control and extermination of dissenters - remains the goal.)
Jim
The federal laws are predicated on control of interstate commerce and helping states enforce their own laws. But they do so by establishing, taxing, and regulating a system of federally licensed gun dealers. Originally, it was felt that the federal government had no authority to control transactions by non-dealers within a state, so sales by individuals to individuals are not controlled.
The "gun show loophole" is simply an attempt to impose further federal controls in an area previous lawmakers considered a state matter. The usual approach is to require the gun show promoter to obtain a special license that would allow federal law enforcement to arrest anyone selling or attempting to sell a gun on the "licensed premises" and/or make the promoter liable for any illegal transactions.
Yes, some states do ban individual sales of handguns, and that applies to gun shows as well; transactions have to go through a licensed dealer. Most show dealers will handle the transaction for a fee, just like internet sales, but it is a costly nuisance, and there seems little or no evidence that it reduces crime or keeps guns out of the wrong hands.
(Needless to say, the gun control movement, being essentially racist, considers the "wrong hands" to be black; unfortunately even some Uncle Toms have bought into the idea that being black is somehow evil and that deprivation of rights is acceptable. The supposed concern over terrorism is simply another ploy by the gun ban gang; first it was juvenile delinquents, then Black Panthers, then the KKK, then "militias", then terrorists; whatever the excuse, the goal - total and complete disarmament of the American people, followed by total government control and extermination of dissenters - remains the goal.)
Jim
orionengnr
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You would have to check your state laws, but if you lived in my state, you have it exactly right...and I would imagine that if you live in any number of states, you would have it exactly right.
KodiakBeer
member
If he lived in Alaska, it would be "none of the above". I'm surprised that there are any such laws outside a few fascist states like NY, CA and Mass. Really, I'm shocked!
22-rimfire
Member
At, I believe you can thank your governor (Ed Rendell) for the firearm law change. Rendell is liberal and has always supported strict gun control laws. Most never make it out of committee, but some come up for vote.
gearchecker
Member
Rudy2281
Is this your opinion, or are you repeating somebody else's comment for the purpose of sharing their opinion so we understand the oppositions perspective?
Will you please be so kind as to answer our inquiry?
BTT, to anwer the Op's questions, there are no loopholes in national gunshow rules at present. The enemy want's to alter our perception of reality, so that the reasonable person thinks there is a "loophole" that needs to be "FIXED".
Leave it alone, but openly supervise and it'll pretty much take care if itself. I've got a lot of LEO friends that never miss em', they're always loooking for a great deal on a gun, or ammo, or spare parts. They more often than not walk out with little more than a bag of Beef Jerky or candy peanuts.
Is this your opinion, or are you repeating somebody else's comment for the purpose of sharing their opinion so we understand the oppositions perspective?
Will you please be so kind as to answer our inquiry?
BTT, to anwer the Op's questions, there are no loopholes in national gunshow rules at present. The enemy want's to alter our perception of reality, so that the reasonable person thinks there is a "loophole" that needs to be "FIXED".
Leave it alone, but openly supervise and it'll pretty much take care if itself. I've got a lot of LEO friends that never miss em', they're always loooking for a great deal on a gun, or ammo, or spare parts. They more often than not walk out with little more than a bag of Beef Jerky or candy peanuts.
ATBackPackin
Member
As a person who has spent most of his life in MD, except the last seven years, I feel like I'm living on the frontier somewhere.
There are however a few laws I would like to see changed and believe they will be soon.
Shawn
22-rimfire
Member
PA has alway been pretty pro-gun. I especially like the forsight that PA had years ago acquiring land for "state game lands". Most were purchased for a song by today's standards. It is quite a resource for the outdoorsman.
toivo
Member
You CAN buy across state lines if you're going through an FFL. It's face-to-face between non-dealers that is verboten between residents of different states: it's interstate commerce, and the Feds can regulate it.
Face-to-face private sales of long guns don't need an FFL if they're between residents of the same state. No FFL, no background check, even in fascist New York.
Actually, in NY we can even do private sales of handguns without an FFL as long as both parties have pistol permits and the transfer is recorded through the permit bureau of the sheriff's office: Since we have handgun registration (), the gun has to be taken off of the seller's permit and put onto the buyer's.
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Sunray
Member
"...non-paperwork transfers..." That being the key. No defacto registration via those ATF forms dealers are required to have you fill out.
"...Do you have to give a receipt?...required the seller to see the buyers ID..." It's not a bad idea. Little bit of CYA should the buyer lie to you. ID can be purchased.
"...joined the vote to require background checks at gun shows..." They vote about who would pay for the technology required too? Just curious.
"...Do you have to give a receipt?...required the seller to see the buyers ID..." It's not a bad idea. Little bit of CYA should the buyer lie to you. ID can be purchased.
"...joined the vote to require background checks at gun shows..." They vote about who would pay for the technology required too? Just curious.
rbernie
Contributing Member
We've done a lot of these threads lately.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=505889
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518573
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=519020
Let's give this a rest for a bit.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=505889
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518573
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=519020
Let's give this a rest for a bit.
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