What is a firearm?

[pax]

Here is the definition I've been using for years:

A firearm is a mechanism which throws projectiles using the energy produced through the rapid, confined burning of a propellant.

Using this definition, neither pellet guns nor BB guns nor paintball guns are "firearms," because they use air pressure rather than burning propellant.

But ...

My oldest son was standing next to my elbow a few minutes ago, and wants to know whether our spud gun is a firearm because it uses the rapid, confined burning of a propellant (hair spray) to fling the projectile (the potato) downrange.

Opinions?

pax

 

[DogBonz]

that question lies in one thing

The ATF's definition of "rapid"

I used to have a spud cannon, and experimented with different "propelants", and some burn much faster than others.

Also, something that I just thought of. A spun gun/ cannon is a muzzel loader (at least mine was), so maybe it walls under those regs.

 

[mp510]

There is a BATFE ruling on spud guns, that determines them to not be firearms if they are used for launching potatoes for recreational purposes. If they are to be used as a weapon, they need a Destructive Device Stamp.

http://www.spudtech.com/content.asp?id=13

http://atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b17

 

[Hiaboo]

an arm that's on fire.... No, seriously though.. like mp510 said. I built a couple of spud cannons for myself a while ago, so i was curious bout the legality of things.. SO.. I called the P.O. station and they were like, "what's a spud cannon" I explained it to them, they said that they don't care about it, as long as it's not being used as an weapon (it can be but I disgress).

 

[CB900F]

Pax;

And if you're subject to a traffic stop by an LEO, and asked if there are any firearms in the vehicle, by all means reply that there are. Just make sure to include all the ones in the engine block. They're evil ya know ! Not registered as such, but meet the definition.

900F

 

[Jim K]

I understand that a judge in (I think) WA state has ruled that air guns, paintball guns, and CO2 guns are "firearms", I doubt that ruling would stand, but who knows.

Note, though, that for many legal purposes, any gun, even a dummy or a finger in the pocket can be an "arm". Use of any gun or anything the victim thinks is a deadly or dangerous weapon makes the difference between robbery and armed robbery. Even the guy who pointed a baby alligator at a bank teller (I am not making this up) was charged with armed robbery. The report didn't say if the alligator was 9mm or .38.)

Jim

 

[El Tejon]

I don't really care what defintion you use, I care what definition the general assembly and Congress uses.

(Tell your boy to relax, it's not a firearm [maybe in NJ, DC, or MA]).

 

[Mal H]

pax - I would change your basic definition to add the word "metallic", i.e., "which throws metallic projectiles"; and I would add the clarifier, "and chiefly used as a weapon". That would remove any latitude for spud guns, etc.

It would appear you are concentrating on the "fire-" part of the word "firearm". However, the key term in the word is actually "-arm", or weapon. If it weren't then nailguns and such could be classified as a firearm (that is, the type of nailgun that burns butane).

 

[pax]

Mal ~

Thanks. That's exactly what I needed!

edit: hmmmm, waitaminute. Whaddya do with, f'r example, guns designed solely for Olympic target-shooting competition? Not weapons, but definitely firearms.

pax

 

[hexidismal]

I'm not sure if the 'metallic projectiles' thing holds up.. but then I'm not sure it doesn't. What if a gun, while still of course capable of firing metal projectiles, is used exclusively for firing less lethal options/ rubber/ wood/ etc .. If it's loaded with all rubber projectiles it's still a firearm. I don't know.

 

[Eleven Mike]

The arm in firearm means weapon, so weapon might have to be a part of the definition. But some firearms are specifically designed as target peices, so perhaps that wouldn't work.

And if you're subject to a traffic stop by an LEO, and asked if there are any firearms in the vehicle, by all means reply that there are. Just make sure to include all the ones in the engine block. They're evil ya know ! Not registered as such, but meet the definition.

Are you talking about pistons? Those wouldn't be projectiles, would they?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

A device for effectively using ammunition.

A firearm is a mechanism which throws projectiles using the energy produced through the rapid, confined burning of a propellant.

The problem I have with that is it includes the definition of firearm and ammunition into one.

 

[SDC]

Canadian law skirts that question entirely, by defining a firearm as "a barrelled weapon designed or intended to fire a projectile or projectiles at a velocity higher than 152.4 metres per second (500 fps) or with an energy greater than 5.7 Joules".

 

[Eleven Mike]

it includes the definition of firearm and ammunition into one.

Not really. Or if it does, why not? One's useless without the other.

 

[svtruth]

I like the Canadian

definition bc it exempts low power stuff.
also, what about nail guns using .22 short blanks?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Quote:
it includes the definition of firearm and ammunition into one.

Not really. Or if it does, why not? One's useless without the other.

True. I was just thinking it makes it sound like the ammunition is an integral part of a firearm like a firing pin or a trigger.

 

[SSN Vet]

what about nail guns using .22 short blanks?

only if you use the "high power" ones coded yellow.

oranges and greens don't count

Please don't tell my Dad that I built illegal firearms (tennis ball cannons).......
one good squirt of lighter fluid.....shaka shaka shaka........touch the blow hole with a match and WHOOOOMP!!

I don't know if the Mounties would have busted us for exceeding 500fps, but we'd send those puppies sky high....literally out of sight.

Then we'd "run for cover" not knowing where they were going to come down.

 

[Mal H]

pax -

Whaddya do with, f'r example, guns designed solely for Olympic target-shooting competition? Not weapons, but definitely firearms.

I thought of firearms like that which is why I included the adverb "chiefly", it leaves a little wiggle room in the definition. My original thinking didn't include such specialized firearms as Olympic rifles, Free Pistols, etc., I was thinking of generally available target rifles/handguns, plinking, trap, etc. Those aren't weapons, but they are firearms.

Before posting, I also thought about firearms such as beanbag throwers, rubber bullets, etc. and fully expected some rebuttal on that aspect. (I thought it would come from Jim. ) But, are those really firearms, i.e., weapons, or are they crowd control devices? - or - Are we getting way too technical for a fairly broadly defined word?

 

[Eleven Mike]

I think crowd control guns still qualify as weapons. You ARE trying to hurt people, after all.

 

[BigBlock]

I can tell you 100%, absolutely, without any doubt what so ever, potato guns are NOT firearms in the united states. I was part of the non firearm ruling from the ATF several years ago. I used to manufacture and sell them, I've sold thousands of them all across the country. About once a month I would get a request from a newspaper or local TV station wanting to do an interview about these horrible dangerous things every time some stupid kid shot his grandma with a potato. Try as they might, they could never find any specific legal restrictions to tout in their story.

In most states, even a revolver which uses powder to launch a hunk of lead is not a firearm, so long as it is muzzleloading. They are no more illegal than turkey sandwiches.

 

[Correia]

I amended it for you.

A firearm is a mechanism which throws projectiles using the energy produced through the rapid, confined burning of a propellant. Except for potatos. Those don't count as projectiles. Neither to gerbils, but that is just mean, and they make a horrible mess.

 

[pax]

Correia wins.

It may not be technically accurate, but what the heck.

pax

 

[isp2605]

Look up your state statutes. Someplace it will be defined.
The definition of a firearm in IL:

(430 ILCS 65/1.1) (from Ch. 38, par. 83‑1.1)
"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or
B‑B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;
(2) any device used exclusively for signalling or safety and required or recommended by the United States Coast Guard or the Interstate Commerce Commission;
(3) any device used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition; and
(4) an antique firearm (other than a machine‑gun)
which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

 

[win71]

SAAMI Glossary

FIREARM
An assembly of a barrel and action from which a projectile is propelled through a deflagration of propellant.


DEFLAGRATION
A rapid combustion reaction which is propagated at a sub-sonic rate by heat transfer into the reacting material. This reaction is accompanied by a vigorous evolution of heat and flame. The flow of reaction products is in the direction opposite that of the combustion propagation (unlike DETONATION). Deflagration is usually dependent upon having fuel and oxidizing agent in very close contact, either from having the fuel as a finely divided mixture with the oxidant, or by combining the two in the same chemical compound or mixture. Deflagration exhibits a dependence upon the surrounding gas pressure.

 

[rust collector]

"When I use a word, it means precisely what I want it to mean. No more, no less."

I believe I'm quoting Humpty Dumpty here, but the important thing to keep in mind is that definitions aren't universal or absolute. A spud gun may be a firearm for purposes of a physical or industrial definition, but may fall outside the definition used for regulation. After all, firearms, er, breech-loading small arms made prior to 1898 aren't firearms for purposes of most of the federal regulatory scheme, but they work the same and do the same thing as my 308 T3.

That can cause a lot of heartache, because a firearm in one state may not be subject to a restriction, and across the border although the restriction is similar, the definition which triggers it is different. As Randy Newman notes in the Monk theme song, it's a jungle out there.