What is considered reasonable force in WA?

[russian762x54r]

I have a friend who has been having trouble with people entering her property and home, She lives in rural Pierce county and has called 911 multiple times to try to get some help, the response she has received from law enforcement is "we don't have the manpower to deal with that."
These people are cooking meth on her property, stealing her food, gas and electricity and entering her home and outbuildings. She has changed the locks multiple times, posted no trespassing signs, even set up trip wires at the recommendation of LEO friends.
What I am trying to figure out is what is considered reasonable force in WA. Some case references would be nice, I've heard that you can not shoot or threaten to shoot someone unless they are in your house but RCW 9A.16.020 seems to say otherwise.
This is happening almost every day and its time for it to stop, however I would like some legal precedence before handling this situation.
And before someone asks, no I am not thinking about sniping them or any other such nonsense, myself and some of my "brothers" are considering apprehending them ourselves since the pierce county sheriff will not respond.
And yes I understand that anything from the web should be regarded as hear say and not actual legal advice, but with that in mind some "hear say" with reference to actual cases would be very nice.

 

[MD_Willington]

Best she can do for now is get plenty of video and or pictures... Lame, yes, but that's how it goes.

Any chance she could let a large group of people onto her property for weekly rounds of clays/skeet?

Maybe the unwanted guests would get the idea to move along...

 

[russian762x54r]

We've been shooting crows. These guys are brazen, Shes got hours of footage, a call every other night or so for the past 7 months to 911 and still nothing.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

When she calls to compain be sure she's calling 911 and not the business line. Document each call and what was said by each party. After various calls that are documented, you can contact a lawyer. The police SHOULD respond to all calls, its what we pay them for. A lawyer can help make that happen(I've done this). Expecially if they are making drugs there.

Playing dirty would include calling 911 and hanging up(I've done this). They will come to your house to investigate the call. Its a lot harder for them to say they're "busy" when they are on your front porch.

Playing dirty could also be expressing your frustration with thier lack of response and telling them if they dont want to handle it, you'll handle it yourself(I've done this). But this will most likely put you in a bad light if something did happen.

 

[barnetmill]

Meth cookers are often meth users and that makes them potentially extremely dangerous. Also drug makers can leave hazardous materials in their wake. I do not know if WA has a no retreat/castle law like other states do. In my state if they came inside of the home of a lone woman who let her lawyer do the talking she would most likely walk depending on whose relative she killed.
It is just a very untenable scenario.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by russian762x54r:What I am trying to figure out is what is considered reasonable force in WA.

I've heard that you can not shoot or threaten to shoot someone unless they are in your house but RCW 9A.16.020 seems to say otherwise.

The section of the code that you have cited does not refer to deadly force.

The use of deadly force--that is, any means reasonably likely to cause death or serious physical injury--is essentially limited to self defense.

If the perps were to unlawfully enter an occupied dwelling, deadly force may well be justified under certain circumstances.

Washington State is a "stand your ground" jurisdiction. That simply means that one who is attacked has no duty to retreat before acting in self defense. One should not assume from that a citizen may confront someone to terminate trespass and then lawfully claim self defense if the confrontation should result in the use of deadly force.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Suppose she was” occupying” an out building when someone broke in?
Should she not be in fear for her life just as if she was in her den or kitchen?

 

[russian762x54r]

"One should not assume from that a citizen may confront someone to terminate trespass and then lawfully claim self defense if the confrontation should result in the use of deadly force."

What about paragraph 3 and 4 of the same RCW?

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

Real property would mean on her land unless I am mistaken.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

Meth cookers are often meth users and that makes them potentially extremely dangerous. Also drug makers can leave hazardous materials in their wake.

Tweakers dont think like we do, they can be VERY dangerous. And the chems they use to make the drugs are not only toxic but potentially explosive. If they were growing pot, I'd say go cut it down. If they're making meth, KEEP AWAY!

Washington State is a "stand your ground" jurisdiction. That simply means that one who is attacked has no duty to retreat before acting in self defense. One should not assume from that a citizen may confront someone to terminate trespass and then lawfully claim self defense if the confrontation should result in the use of deadly force.

Very true. In this situation, you dont really have an option to "force" them away by yourself. But they are back there because its private. Call as much official attention to it as you can. You might even call homeland security and tell them you think they're making bombs back there. Call KING5 or KOMO4 and have Kevin Schram do a story on it. (story being: Good citizen called 911 to report drug lab, and was told the Police were "too busy" to bother)

 

[Sam1911]

You really need to engage the services of an attorney to read those laws to you and explain exactly how they'd be interpreted/applied in your specific jurisdiction.

And understand that they probably would be applied to your friend (the landowner) very differently than they'd be applied to you and your "brothers."

Trespassing, and lawful responses to it, are seriously tricky issues. Many people in very "gun-friendly" places have ended up in jail because they overstepped lawful means in attempting to remove a trespasser. (We've had several threads on this recently.)

Citizen's Arrests, which seems to be what you're really getting at, is a whole 'nother level of risky. In both cases, it is entirely possible to end up killed or in jail for trying to enforce the property owner's wishes.

In fact, it is even possible to be shot by a trespasser -- and have them make a successful self-defense claim (i.e.: them be legally justified in shooting you) -- because you threatened them with a firearm.

Get the best REAL advice you can PAY FOR, and proceed with extreme caution.

I would exhaust every method of involving the police before I did anything aggressive with these intruders beyond defending my own life (and family's lives) within my domicile.

 

[hso]

If the local sheriff won't engage on the issue she should contact the state drug task-force or the DEA.

 

[RETG]

They are cooking meth and the police won't come out?
They are entering her home without permission, and the police will not come out?

Why does this sound strange?

 

[Frank Ettin]

You really need to engage the services of an attorney to read those laws to you and explain exactly how they'd be interpreted/applied in your specific jurisdiction....

And an attorney could also help the OP's friend perhaps get some help from law enforcement.

If trespassers are, "...cooking meth on her property, stealing her food, gas and electricity and entering her home and outbuildings....", that's been documented and the cops aren't coming out, something's fishy. A good attorney could help sort things out and maybe even take matters to the Attorney General.

 

[Art Eatman]

I'll second hso's advice. Call some anti-drug task force types as well as the DEA.

I'd also send copies of the videos--not the originals--to the AG's office and to the governor's office. I'd also try to get some newsie to come out and be an observer.

 

[stumpers]

The law enforcement agency does not have the manpower to deal with home invasions? If this is true, calls need to be placed to the state police and also to all the legislators, local and national, and perhaps the local news media - they like to investigate.

I have heard many different things, but this is the most odd in relation to policing. Almost unbelievable...

 

[hermannr]

It is my understanding you can use deadly force to detain (citizens arrest) if the crime committed is a felony, and it is happening in your presence, and you can shoot of they are committing a felony on your person. BTW: if you do this, you better be prepared to hold them and not just try to scare them off.

The key is if what they are doing is a felony or not. If it is a felony you can get the shotgun out, tie them up and hold them for the cops. BTW: residential burglery is a felony. I do not know the rest of the ones you stated, but I do know about residential burglery. RCW 9A.52 has the list of charges for burglery and trespass, and what level crime they are.

See RCW 9.41.270(3)(d) Remember...you need to check RCW chapter 9A for what charge level of criminal activity that is going on with your property...and if that level is a FELONY, YOU or anyone can legally arrest and detain any criminals committing that felony in your pressence using whatever force is necessary. (I would not shoot someone running away though) If they become dangerous to your person, then you may use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself, or someone else with you.

If you call 911 and tell the dispatcher that you have arrested and physically detained a certain number of individuals for violation of RCW 9A.XX,XX, I think you will have your police presence rather quickly. Video tape everything, not just for the DA, and for your own protection. RCW 69.50 is the controlled substance act. It appears that manufacturing is a class B felony.

RCW 9A.04.020(1)(d) states the purpose of 9A is: "(d) To differentiate on reasonable grounds between serious and minor offenses, and to prescribe proportionate penalties for each." This is the chapter where you find how serious an offence is, not the law that prohibits the activity. As what you MUST know, is this a FELONY? or not? that is in this chapter.

Alternately, you could tell the dispatcher that if the police do not arrive in a certain amount of time (choose a reasonable one) you will arrest the BGs yourself and hold them for when the police can arrive...again, be prepared to follow through.

 

[Tokarevsrule]

I live on a large farm in Kentucky. Our closest neighbors are usually on meth, and used to look around our outbuildings for something to steal. We caught them at it about four years ago and told them we would shoot them if they ever came back. They never came back.

 

[Kleanbore]

It is my understanding you can use deadly force to detain (citizens arrest) if the crime committed is a felony, and it is happening in your presence, and you can shoot of they are committing a felony on your person. BTW: if you do this, you better be prepared to hold them and not just try to scare them off.

The use of deadly force to detain may be lawful in some few jurisdictions under some very rare circumstances; I wouldn't try it anyhwere under any circumstances.

The use of deadly force to stop a fleeing felon may be lawful if the felony committied was particularly heinous (burglary will not cut it), if the actor knew that the person fleeing committed it, if the felon is fleeing immediately after committing it, if the actor has reason to believe that the felon will, if not stopped. constitute and immeidate and serious danger to others, and if the felon will not otherwise be apprehended.

Don't try it.

The OP should seek competent legal advice.

 

[double bogey]

I can understand your frustration getting law enforcement involved. About 5 years ago one of my neighbors was running a burglary/drug sales operation out of their house. One of them even pointed a rifle at my wife one day (I wasn't home, if it had been me I would have cleaned it up then). Repeated calls to police accomplished nothing except to advise me to get along with my neighbors. They would empty magazines on pistols, and then turn out the lights and hide in the house when police drove by. most of the other neighbors were older and were living in terror, too scared to complain to police. Finally I used a Family connection direct to the chief of police. Next thing I know, the city homeland security director is calling me wanting specifics. 6 months later, it's all cleaned up. If I did not have a connection to the top, I have no doubt it would still be going today, no telling what would have happened.