What is destroying my NEW Para Warthog frame?!

[stevemis]

Hi folks.

I purchased a new Para Warthog in 45 yesterday. I popped it apart last night and gave it a quick once-over.. everything looked fine. It came with some white grease on the rails and what looked like proper amounts of oil in the right spots. Everything looked fine.

I went out to the range and shot a quick 100-120 round session, and experienced no stoppages. I was shooting Remington UMC 230 grain ball.

When I got home and tore the pistol down for a clean-up, I noticed there's a fair amount of damage on the frame, between the magazine well and the disconnector. The metal appears as if something has been hammering away at it, and it's very irregular and sharp.

I also noticed a fair amount of scoring on the frame rails, far more so than any of my other 1911's (which have thousands and thousands of rounds through them). The underside of the slide is absolutely pristine, and I'm unable to find any interface marks. Also, note the line ahead and behind the disconnector.

Is the frame supposed to be this soft, or am I missing something?

ETA: Model # WHX1045 -- Stainless receiver and slide.

Steve

 

[stevemis]

Anybody?

 

[870]

Is it possible that the frame and slide are lapping together?

That's what I feel.

 

[gb6491]

Some photos of the slide bottom would help. At first glance, it looks like the slide has scraped the top of the frame leaving a burr. However, it looks like there is a burr in front of the ejector as well. I find it hard to believe that the slide did that. So, my guess is that there was a burr at the top of the frame along the edge of the magazine well and that the slide knocked it down during operation (installing the ejector probably did the same thing there). It looks like a piece of the burr may have broken off and got trapped under the slide causing the gouge over the disconnecter. I'd send it back to the mother ship for repair under warranty as a defect.
Regards,
Greg

 

[hankpac]

If it didn't look like that before you shot and it looks like that after a single trip to the range, you need to furnish the manufacturer photos and see if they will make it good. Sounds like a lemon: poor hardening, or fit on this one, and it needs correcting. It will only get worse, rapidly.

 

[stevemis]

Thanks for the reply, Greg.

Some photos of the slide bottom would help.

Sure. I also took some better photos with help of the morning sun..

At first glance, it looks like the slide has scraped the top of the frame leaving a burr. However, it looks like there is a burr in front of the ejector as well. I find it hard to believe that the slide did that.

Agreed, with an asterisk. Judging by the amount of wear I'm seeing on the slide rails of the frame, my thoughts are that the slide is very hard and the frame is far softer. I compared this pistol with 100-ish rounds through it to a Springfield stainless 1911, and the Springer has almost no wear whatsoever. The Springfield has an unknown history, since I bought it used. I have, however, shot several thousand rounds through it over the years.

So, my guess is that there was a burr at the top of the frame along the edge of the magazine well and that the slide knocked it down during operation (installing the ejector probably did the same thing there). It looks like a piece of the burr may have broken off and got trapped under the slide causing the gouge over the disconnecter.

Now that I look at this closer, it's entirely possible that the rear and bottom of the slide made contact with the portion of the frame in front of the pistol during recoil and beat up that 90 degree angle on the frame. I see shards of metal coming off... I wonder if a chunk-let of that battered frame material got loose and caused that scoring that runs parallel to the frame and through the disconnector.

Not cool.

I'd send it back to the mother ship for repair under warranty as a defect.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, there is no warranty. I found out this morning that Para no longer offers a "warranty" although they "try their best" to fix their broken products. Dee over in "Customer Service" told me to ship the pistol overnight, at my expense ... and they'd look it over. She refused to put me in contact with someone to discuss the problem, and only offered the "Contact Us" link on their site.

I just spent about $1,000 on this pistol about 48 hours ago. My stomach is in knots.

Steve

ETA - Here's the "warranty" info (matches the manual):

http://www.para-usa.com/new/service_policy.php

Para-Ordnance has elected not to offer any written or express warranty on its product line and you are advised to consult existing legislation in your country, state or province with regard to any implied warranty rights you may have under such laws.

 

[stevemis]

If it didn't look like that before you shot and it looks like that after a single trip to the range, you need to furnish the manufacturer photos and see if they will make it good. Sounds like a lemon: poor hardening, or fit on this one, and it needs correcting. It will only get worse, rapidly.

I sent a link with photos and followed it up with an email and voicemail to George Wedge. I inspected the pistol when I arrived home and didn't note any damage whatsoever. I'm fairly certain I would have seen it immediately.. It was the first thing I saw when I field stripped it for a cleaning, and I noticed it even though it was nicely obscured by powder and ash from my session.

 

[Owen]

my best guess is that they missed that edge when they deburred the frame. I'd bet that a few quick passes with a file would knock the burr off and that edge would look fine.

There is abolutely no way that the slide can touch the frame directly in front of the ejector, but you are seeing the same sort of "damage" there. Furthermore, battering doesn't usually result in material falling of the part, it just gets peened. In addition, I would expect to see drag marks all the way across the top of the frame, not just the thin line down the middle, which would be caused by the <brainfart>.

Still, I'd send it back to Para. It's clearly a materials/workmanship issue. IOW, Para's problem, not yours.

 

[stevemis]

This is interesting. I fired a couple of magazines offhand, left hand only. My 18 karat white gold wedding ring scuffed the frame up.

My wife just showed me how the grip safety doesn't engage unless it's pressed square. If there's the slightest lateral pressure, it locks in place. You can force it to engage with a fair amount of pressure. At that point, the pistol makes a snapping sound.

Something is certainly not right.

 

[stevemis]

I escalated up the ranks at Para and spoke with George Wedge. He is absolutely certain someone neglected to de-burr that area of the frame. He said the machining process goes from hammer to muzzle, which explains why the material hangs into the magazine well. He also said it would have been very difficult to see out-of-the-box, as the material was bead blasted along with the rest of the frame and that firing the pistol scuffed the material up and made it more obvious, which is why I noticed it after firing instead of during my initial field strip out of the box.

George also said the scoring in front of and behind the disconnector had to be caused by some of that material working free while firing.

I have no doubt the gouges in the ejector and right side frame rail were also caused by this material. George said the pieces that were supposed to be removed were work-hardened, and would be 7 or 8 Rockwell points harder than the rest of the frame. This explains why the pistol is showing such severe wear at 100 rounds. It's basically been chewing Grade 8 bolts.

I'm hopeful the factory will also address the malfunctioning grip safety as well.

None of this inspires the least amount of confidence in this pistol as a carry piece. At $975, I don't expect to have to help troubleshoot any manufacturing defects.

Para issued a call tag and the pistol is going in for repair. I'll update this thread when I have more info.

Thanks for all of the pointers, folks.

Steve

 

[hankpac]

Now you are talking

Talking to the boss and getting a call order is exactly what you need.
Not offering a Guarantee is fine, IF they back up their product.
The industry in general is possibly the last that will back up their products.
If they DON't fix this, start here, and spread the word. Negative feedback about something like this will KILL sales rapidly.
I am betting they will fix it. or replace it.

 

[buzz_knox]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, there is no warranty. I found out this morning that Para no longer offers a "warranty" although they "try their best" to fix their broken products. Dee over in "Customer Service" told me to ship the pistol overnight, at my expense ... and they'd look it over.

Where did they want you to ship it to? At one point, Para's "service center" was a house in Sevierville, TN. It got raided by the local PD after neighbors saw a couple of guys carrying loads of guns in and out.

 

[Spartacus451]

Did they pay for shipping? Ask that they do.

 

[stevemis]

Hey guys... Para issued a call tag through UPS (so shipping is free) and it will be addressed to them. I'll double-check the address and report back.

Steve

 

[Thernlund]

Hey man, sometimes you get a lemon. Happens to Toyotas, happens to Jaguars. The key to defining a quality manufacturer lies with how they service your concerns, and not necessarily the fact that you won the "lemon lottery". It sounds as if Para it taking care of you.

Got a bad Sig once. They turned it around in 4 days and solved it the first time, not cost to me. Now it's perfect and I'm very happy with it and them.


-T.

 

[stevemis]

Where did they want you to ship it to? At one point, Para's "service center" was a house in Sevierville, TN. It got raided by the local PD after neighbors saw a couple of guys carrying loads of guns in and out.

It's an address on Allensville Road in Sevierville, TN... and it sure looks like a house.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Need to have a good gunny check it out and tell you.

I thought warthogs were warty

 

[Jim K]

Maybe I am looking at the pictures wrong, but that looks like one of the worst casting jobs I have seen in a long time. It makes a Bryco look like high quality.

That type of warranty is not uncommon today, as it gets a company out of a lot of hassle over what is or is not under warranty. IIRC, Ruger says about the same thing, but actions speak louder than words and Ruger will fix about any problem gun that is sent to them, free of charge.

I really have no advice, except to take advantage of whatever service the company will offer. No gunsmith will touch work like that as it is obviously due to a manufacturing defect, not something that can be repaired.

(I have never owned a Para gun and, seeing that one, I don't think I will rush out to buy one any time soon.)

Jim

 

[dhoomonyou]

keep us posted.

 

[Harley Quinn]

(I have never owned a Para gun and, seeing that one, I don't think I will rush out to buy one any time soon.)

Jim

Good observation Jim Somethings are better left for others to wade through.

 

[TraderJack]

I agree with Jim above...
Looks like a very poor casting to me.

 

[Canuck-IL]

...and Colt ships with off-center barrel cuts, Springfield ships extractors that fail in 1,000 rounds and they shoot 6" low, etc. etc. They all screw-up at times - what matters is what the OP gets back and how quickly it gets there...along with at least a couple of mags for the inconvenience.

Oh, and a brief note of apology for the knucklehead he had to deal with in the initial customer service contact.
/Bryan

 

[pete f]

Let me just add this, I used to work at a shop that sold a lot of para's to the speed shooters and I bought several as well, I sent back maybe 10 guns out of hundreds we sold of Para's and we never had to send one back a second time.

MOST of the time, the turn around was VERY reasonable, only one gun took a long time, and they offered him choice of another gun if he did not want to wait. (The wait was because they were out of a frame size, the 6/45 and the next batch was not scheduled for some weeks,)

I believe that Para still takes care of their own, and does so very well.

The "lack" of a warrantee comes about from too many states and municipalities getting their fingers in the mix regarding product standards and often means that its easier for them to just fix it no matter what, rather than spell out what is covered and what is not.

This is often because so many who buy guns have no reasonable idea about what is or is not normal, many getting all their advice from Bubba and all their gun knowledge from CSI miami. If I sell you a gun that I know I can shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards with, but you with your botched $199 per eye lasik or 3.99 internet glasses can not hit the Q target at 7 feet, makes it hard to spec an accuracy threshold. Likewise, if I sell you a gun with adjustable sights and you keep sending it back as "shooting too high" when you have not touched the adjustment screw, its not my fault.

 

[stevemis]

I wrote a Range Review in Autoloaders. I'll update both this and the review when I get my pistol back.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4490486

 

[whipdancer]

I'm very interested in how this turns out, as after shooting a P14, P12 and Warthog - I'm saving up for my own now.