SaintofKillers
Member
Randy Weaver probably thought that PDshooter was goofy.
What is Going on With Randy Weaver?
- Thread starter Blain
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Augustwest
Member
Count me among the pathetic.
While I never have (and never will), shared his beliefs about race, God, women, and I'm sure, a laundry list of other things, a guy who wanted to be left alone was pushed by the government into breaking a law that is antithetical to the principles this country was founded on.
Then a paramilitary police unit killed his wife and child.
Like Randy Weaver or not, t'was the rawest of deals, Ruby Ridge was.
One of a suspicious mind might be persuaded to believe that it is precisely THOSE kind of people who are most likely to be "murdered by federal agents recklessly overstepping their legal authority".
But saying such a thing would be cop bashing, now, wouldn't it?
seeker_two
Member
What was the story about: "When they came for the Jews, I said nothing"...
12-34hom
Member
Tamara, And just exactly how did the feds end up there?
Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?
Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?
The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions.
12-34hom.
Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?
Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?
The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions.
12-34hom.
Don't know how much stock you can put into it, but he claims that he was destitute at the time and sold the illegally modified weapons in order to make money to feed his family.
Yeah, yeah, other ways to do it, but hardly what I'd call "greed".
Stupidity, I'll agree with.
Might've helped if they'd told him the right day to come, y'know?
Which does not in any respect excuse the heavy-handed actions of the federal agents.
If someone was driving too fast, are pulled over by a police officer and then summarily shot, it can be said that their failure to comply with the rules of the road lead to their death, but that doesn't excuse the cop for shooting them afterwards. An extreme example, to be sure, but I hope it illustrates my point.
12-34hom wrote
"Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?
Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?
The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions."
The feds changed the court date and did not notify Weaver. How could he "fail to act" if he did not receive notice?
We seem to be forgetting that the feds fired the first shoots (killing the dog) and Harris and the Sammy Weaver had no way to know who was shooting or why. All they knew was that men in camo suits appeared to be shooting at them. The fact that the shoot out was started by the feds has never been in dispute.
Greed I think not. Stupidity perhaps. Lets not forget that the jury clearly ruled the the feds entraped Weaver and that the only thing he was guilty of was failure to appear for a crime they ruled he had NOT commited.
In addition the government admitted guilt on thier part and settled with the Weavers for several million. The whole situation was clearly set up by the feds and they are clearly responsible for what happened.
Is Weaver a racist or crack pot? I personally don't know. But I have talked to him at a gun show for a few minutes and he didn't seem to be very much of a wack job. In fact, considering what he had been through, he seemed fairly normal to me.
Does his proported racisim or crazyness have any real bearing on what happened to him? I think not. In this country what you think and say should never be subject to goverment saction unless it results in harm to others (yelling fire...). In Weavers case all he wanted was to be left alone and he had clearly done no harm to anyone. If the feds has respected his rights he would be an unkown "nut" living in the outback that no one had heard of. And I am sure that Weaver would have perfered that to what happened.
Hal
"Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?
Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?
The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions."
The feds changed the court date and did not notify Weaver. How could he "fail to act" if he did not receive notice?
We seem to be forgetting that the feds fired the first shoots (killing the dog) and Harris and the Sammy Weaver had no way to know who was shooting or why. All they knew was that men in camo suits appeared to be shooting at them. The fact that the shoot out was started by the feds has never been in dispute.
Greed I think not. Stupidity perhaps. Lets not forget that the jury clearly ruled the the feds entraped Weaver and that the only thing he was guilty of was failure to appear for a crime they ruled he had NOT commited.
In addition the government admitted guilt on thier part and settled with the Weavers for several million. The whole situation was clearly set up by the feds and they are clearly responsible for what happened.
Is Weaver a racist or crack pot? I personally don't know. But I have talked to him at a gun show for a few minutes and he didn't seem to be very much of a wack job. In fact, considering what he had been through, he seemed fairly normal to me.
Does his proported racisim or crazyness have any real bearing on what happened to him? I think not. In this country what you think and say should never be subject to goverment saction unless it results in harm to others (yelling fire...). In Weavers case all he wanted was to be left alone and he had clearly done no harm to anyone. If the feds has respected his rights he would be an unkown "nut" living in the outback that no one had heard of. And I am sure that Weaver would have perfered that to what happened.
Hal
I have spoken to Randy Weaver in person on several occasions, when we were both signing books. I can't say that I "know" him, but the shortwave rantings you mention don't sound like anything that I ever heard come out of the mouth of the man *I* met.
As columnist Vin Supynowicz has said, Randy Weaver is a fairly good-looking and fairly charming and well-spoken man. He is about 5' 8" IIRC and slender. He does not come across as a low-IQ jerk or a gutless coward. He also does not come across as a person who has been coached as to what to say or how to act in public.
When they made a TV movie about Ruby Ridge, who was selected to play Weaver? RANDY QUAID. Suprynowicz pointed out that Quaid evokes images of Gomer Pyle on Quaaludes. It wouldn't do to cast a well-spoken, good-looking man as Weaver.
BTW Weaver shortened the shotgun barrel to a bit over 18", as many people do, and turned the buttstock into a handgrip. The OAL was under 26", making the gun illegal. Who cut enough off the stock to make the gun <26" long is uncertain, since Randy wasn't aware of this provision of the law and isn't sure if the gun's stock was short enough to give a too-short OAL when it left his hands, or not. There are documented cases where ATF agents converted semis to MGs and said someone else did it (the agents later confessed), so an agent shortening a piece of wood when no one was looking is clearly a distinct possibility.
ATF/FBI investigated this near-poverty-level citizen living in the middle of nowhere because he didn't want to be a spy for the feds, spying on the Aryan Nations camp a few miles away. They spent more man-hours and dollars on intel/surveillance of Randy Weaver than they did in preparation for the invasion of Haiti.
THAT ought to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
JR
As columnist Vin Supynowicz has said, Randy Weaver is a fairly good-looking and fairly charming and well-spoken man. He is about 5' 8" IIRC and slender. He does not come across as a low-IQ jerk or a gutless coward. He also does not come across as a person who has been coached as to what to say or how to act in public.
When they made a TV movie about Ruby Ridge, who was selected to play Weaver? RANDY QUAID. Suprynowicz pointed out that Quaid evokes images of Gomer Pyle on Quaaludes. It wouldn't do to cast a well-spoken, good-looking man as Weaver.
BTW Weaver shortened the shotgun barrel to a bit over 18", as many people do, and turned the buttstock into a handgrip. The OAL was under 26", making the gun illegal. Who cut enough off the stock to make the gun <26" long is uncertain, since Randy wasn't aware of this provision of the law and isn't sure if the gun's stock was short enough to give a too-short OAL when it left his hands, or not. There are documented cases where ATF agents converted semis to MGs and said someone else did it (the agents later confessed), so an agent shortening a piece of wood when no one was looking is clearly a distinct possibility.
ATF/FBI investigated this near-poverty-level citizen living in the middle of nowhere because he didn't want to be a spy for the feds, spying on the Aryan Nations camp a few miles away. They spent more man-hours and dollars on intel/surveillance of Randy Weaver than they did in preparation for the invasion of Haiti.
THAT ought to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
JR
PDshooter
Member
"WELL SAID" John Ross!!!!!!
I meet the man too! He ant no low I.Q type!!!
I meet the man too! He ant no low I.Q type!!!
Has anyone verified which shortwave show Weaver supposedly made these statements on?
Time, program, verify freq, and was Weaver serious?
Was the finger issue brought up in his book(which I haven't read)?
Why is the fingers/skull being mentioned now?
Time, program, verify freq, and was Weaver serious?
Was the finger issue brought up in his book(which I haven't read)?
Why is the fingers/skull being mentioned now?
Tamara
Senior Member
12-34hom,
Oh, yeah, I forgot!
"Greed & Stupidity in the 1st Degree" carries a sentence of "Your son & his dog backshot by a bunch of cops dressed like wannabe-commandos while he walks in the woods, and your wife tagged between the running lights by a highly trained federal sniper lying camouflaged on a hill 200 yards away"...
Thanks for reminding me!
Oh, yeah, I forgot!
"Greed & Stupidity in the 1st Degree" carries a sentence of "Your son & his dog backshot by a bunch of cops dressed like wannabe-commandos while he walks in the woods, and your wife tagged between the running lights by a highly trained federal sniper lying camouflaged on a hill 200 yards away"...
Thanks for reminding me!
Tamara
Senior Member
John Ross,
I never thought the man was stupid; from the few impressions I've had of him, he struck me as bright and articulate. However, anyone who subscribes to some of his personal beliefs also falls int my own personal "He didn't get all 64 colors in his box of Crayolas" category. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Like I said, though; wanting to live out in the woods and live by oddball philosophies or religious beliefs isn't a capital crime, last I checked.
I never thought the man was stupid; from the few impressions I've had of him, he struck me as bright and articulate. However, anyone who subscribes to some of his personal beliefs also falls int my own personal "He didn't get all 64 colors in his box of Crayolas" category. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Like I said, though; wanting to live out in the woods and live by oddball philosophies or religious beliefs isn't a capital crime, last I checked.
Orthonym
Member
Is it still ok to live on a mountaintop in Tennessee?
Tamara
Senior Member
As long as you killed you a b'ar when you were only three.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Given how many of us Terlinguoids live off in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure glad there are no Aryan Nation types around. TLOK (the Lord only knows) what we'd be accused of.Y'know, when you read about the various doings of BATF over the last 15 or so years, it seems one prerequisite for agenthood is the ability to get excited over the crime of Mopery, with intent to Gawk.
, ArtPeople don't think. Because the Feds acted badly doesn't mean that Weaver is worth spit as a human being.
Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?
He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.
Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?
He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.
No question that he's a loser and has views which would be anathema to most. But, the problem is, the same 1st Amendment that lets you say that also allows him to hold those views free from any governmental retaliation. Because of his views, he was targetted by the gov't, and ultimately, his family was decimated. That's what people are having a problem with, along with the blind obedience offered to anyone asserting gov't authority.
Glock Glockler
Member
People don't think. Because the Feds acted badly doesn't mean that Weaver is worth spit as a human being.
So upon your determination of what someone's worth it's justified to kill their family?
Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?
Whether or not Weaver was a racist is irrelevant, he was a man who wanted to go off into the woods and be left alone, I would think that you'd want all racists to do likewise. The fact remains that he was set up by the govt and they behaved no better than murderers, the only difference being that they got to wear snappy uniforms.
He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.
I didn't know that you had the official declaration on what a real American is supposed to be. I also don't see how one could compare the Feds to Weaver, he wanted to be left alone and they did everything they could to not leave him alone and invade his life. They're not fit to clean dog crap off his shoes.
So upon your determination of what someone's worth it's justified to kill their family?
Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?
Whether or not Weaver was a racist is irrelevant, he was a man who wanted to go off into the woods and be left alone, I would think that you'd want all racists to do likewise. The fact remains that he was set up by the govt and they behaved no better than murderers, the only difference being that they got to wear snappy uniforms.
He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.
I didn't know that you had the official declaration on what a real American is supposed to be. I also don't see how one could compare the Feds to Weaver, he wanted to be left alone and they did everything they could to not leave him alone and invade his life. They're not fit to clean dog crap off his shoes.
I don't really care what kind of person Randy is, or isn't. What I do know is that members of his family were murdered, and that noone was punished. Indeed I seem to recall that one of the senior agents in charge was promoted shortly afterwards "don't judge me by my words, judge me by my actions".
One of the documentaries made about the Waco massacre, showed local townsfolk rebuilding the compound on, or near to, the site of the original. The camera crew started interviewing a carpenter, who continued to work while they spoke to him in a wonderfully disinterested way, when they asked him about snipers, he pointed to a neaby house and said
"they all set themselves up in there, Horiuchi too".
The interviewer seemed shocked "you mean that Lon Horiuchi was here, at Waco", the guy replied,
"you didn't know that huh, hmmm, interesting" all while he continued to work.
Noone seems to mention that, few people even seem to know.
I can't help but wonder where that murdering peace of scum is today, and how many more young mothers holding babies have to die before we do something about the actions of him in particular, and law enforcement in general.
The people who really p*** me off are the ones who bleat about all this freedom we have, we really aren't that free, and it sounds more stupid every time I hear it. As ever YMMV.
One of the documentaries made about the Waco massacre, showed local townsfolk rebuilding the compound on, or near to, the site of the original. The camera crew started interviewing a carpenter, who continued to work while they spoke to him in a wonderfully disinterested way, when they asked him about snipers, he pointed to a neaby house and said
"they all set themselves up in there, Horiuchi too".
The interviewer seemed shocked "you mean that Lon Horiuchi was here, at Waco", the guy replied,
"you didn't know that huh, hmmm, interesting" all while he continued to work.
Noone seems to mention that, few people even seem to know.
I can't help but wonder where that murdering peace of scum is today, and how many more young mothers holding babies have to die before we do something about the actions of him in particular, and law enforcement in general.
The people who really p*** me off are the ones who bleat about all this freedom we have, we really aren't that free, and it sounds more stupid every time I hear it. As ever YMMV.
I once believed everything the media (and Hollywood) had to say about Weaver. Then I met him (just out of curiousity) and came away even more curious about the truth. He was nothing like I expected him to be (or was told to expect). He is a serious, calm, intelligent man. Weaver admits that he was wrong about a lot of things - he also remains steadfast in his belief that he was right about a lot of things. It's plainly ignorant to argue about the LEGAL aspects of this case, as the courts clearly ruled in his favor. However repugnant his racial beliefs were or are - absolutely nothing justifided the Government actions - not by a longshot. Personally, I doubt if his beliefs are much different from many rich folks who live in gated mansions and belong to private clubs. They just have better guns and lawyers. As far as being an ignorant loser, or a lunatic, a fool, a coward, or a punk? I don't think so. And neither was Vickie apparently.
Regarding the frootloop SW message: Sorry, but I'd have to more proof than an internet post about a SW broadcast. I doubt if it's true.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/3.html?sect=18
"Randall Claude Weaver was born on January 3, 1948. He was the only boy of four children born to Clarence and Wilma Weaver, a farming couple from Villisca, Iowa. The Weavers were deeply religious, however they had a difficult time finding a denomination which matched their views, hence they often bounced back and forth from Evangelical, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches. As Randy grew up, he strove to make his father proud. He earned decent grades in school and enjoyed a variety of sports and ultimately accepted Jesus as his savior at the age of 11.
Graduating from high school in 1966, Randy enrolled in Iowa Central Community College, where he met a pretty young student named Vicki Jordison. Following a school dance the two started dating and began to grow very close. Vicki Jordison was a year younger than Randy and had grown up in Fort Dodge, Iowa, just 50 miles north of Randy's childhood home. Similar to Randy, Vicki had also been raised with conflicting religious teachings. Her mother was a Congregationalist and her father a Mormon. Throughout her childhood, her father would often attempt to foretell current events as he compared the Bible?fs prophecies with the newspaper. As she grew into a young woman, Vicki was considered highly intelligent by her peers. She excelled in school and eventually became vice president of the Pleasant Valley Future Business Leaders of America and an active member in the Pixies 4-H group. Her younger sister, Julie, later stated that she was the kind of person that everyone liked and envied. In 1967 Vicki graduated from Fort Dodge High School and enrolled in Iowa Central Community College.
Despite the growing passion between Randy and Vicki, the war in Vietnam was beginning to escalate and Randy had a strong desire to fight for his country. In October of 1968 he said his good byes to Vicki, dropped out of school and joined the United States Army. Randy excelled in the military and quickly qualified for the Green Berets. The training is extremely demanding. Candidates must learn to survive with little food and equipment in the harshest of conditions, while becoming an expert in all forms of combat weapons and explosives. Randy again excelled and was promoted to the rank of sergeant following his training.
Randy's first assignment was at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. While most would have relished in the state side duty, he highly resented it. Randy could not understand the point of going through all the special training and not being able to put any of it to use. Friends later said that he became bitter over the fact that men who wanted nothing to do with the war were being sent over every day, and yet he, a trained warrior who had volunteered to go, sat at an Army base with minimal duties. As Randy waited for combat duty, Vicki Jordison was finishing her college studies, earning a two-year degree in business and was busy securing a job at the United Way.
In 1970 Randy secured a temporary leave from Fort Bragg and returned to his hometown for a visit. He had already decided to finish up his duties with the Army as quickly as possible and wanted to inform his family of his plans. It did not take long for him to look up Vicki and the two picked up where they had left off almost two years earlier. Within weeks, they were engaged to marry.
Vicki's family was concerned when they learned of the couple's quick engagement. In their eyes, the two had not courted long enough and were rushing into something for which they both were not prepared. Vicki explained to her family that she truly loved Randy and that they would have probably married years earlier if Randy had not enlisted in the military. In striving to keep their daughter happy, Vicki?fs family relented and gave the couple their blessing.
On October 8, 1971, following three years of duty, Randy Weaver received an honorable discharge from the Army and moved back home. One month later, in November of 1971, Randy and Vicki were wed during a small ceremony at the First Congregationalist Church in Fort Dodge, Iowa. In an attempt to please Vicki's family, two ministers conducted the ceremony, one from the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints and the other a Congregationalist pastor.
Following the wedding the newlyweds moved into a small apartment two hours east of Fort Dodge, in Cedar Falls. Randy enrolled at the University of Northern Iowa to take criminal justice classes, intending to become an FBI agent. Nonetheless, the young couple found the cost of school to be too much for them and Randy eventually dropped out. The couple started selling Amway products to support themselves.
In 1973 the Weavers gave up on their career as Amway marketers. Randy secured a job at the John Deere tractor plant in Waterloo, just outside Cedar Falls, and Vicki got a job as a secretary at a Sears department store. They were both earning modest paychecks and eventually purchased a ranch-style home for $26,000 in a well-kept Cedar Falls neighborhood. They were seemingly quite happy „Ÿ they had plenty of money and Randy was always buying boats, motorcycles and sports cars.
........
Regarding the frootloop SW message: Sorry, but I'd have to more proof than an internet post about a SW broadcast. I doubt if it's true.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/3.html?sect=18
"Randall Claude Weaver was born on January 3, 1948. He was the only boy of four children born to Clarence and Wilma Weaver, a farming couple from Villisca, Iowa. The Weavers were deeply religious, however they had a difficult time finding a denomination which matched their views, hence they often bounced back and forth from Evangelical, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches. As Randy grew up, he strove to make his father proud. He earned decent grades in school and enjoyed a variety of sports and ultimately accepted Jesus as his savior at the age of 11.
Graduating from high school in 1966, Randy enrolled in Iowa Central Community College, where he met a pretty young student named Vicki Jordison. Following a school dance the two started dating and began to grow very close. Vicki Jordison was a year younger than Randy and had grown up in Fort Dodge, Iowa, just 50 miles north of Randy's childhood home. Similar to Randy, Vicki had also been raised with conflicting religious teachings. Her mother was a Congregationalist and her father a Mormon. Throughout her childhood, her father would often attempt to foretell current events as he compared the Bible?fs prophecies with the newspaper. As she grew into a young woman, Vicki was considered highly intelligent by her peers. She excelled in school and eventually became vice president of the Pleasant Valley Future Business Leaders of America and an active member in the Pixies 4-H group. Her younger sister, Julie, later stated that she was the kind of person that everyone liked and envied. In 1967 Vicki graduated from Fort Dodge High School and enrolled in Iowa Central Community College.
Despite the growing passion between Randy and Vicki, the war in Vietnam was beginning to escalate and Randy had a strong desire to fight for his country. In October of 1968 he said his good byes to Vicki, dropped out of school and joined the United States Army. Randy excelled in the military and quickly qualified for the Green Berets. The training is extremely demanding. Candidates must learn to survive with little food and equipment in the harshest of conditions, while becoming an expert in all forms of combat weapons and explosives. Randy again excelled and was promoted to the rank of sergeant following his training.
Randy's first assignment was at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. While most would have relished in the state side duty, he highly resented it. Randy could not understand the point of going through all the special training and not being able to put any of it to use. Friends later said that he became bitter over the fact that men who wanted nothing to do with the war were being sent over every day, and yet he, a trained warrior who had volunteered to go, sat at an Army base with minimal duties. As Randy waited for combat duty, Vicki Jordison was finishing her college studies, earning a two-year degree in business and was busy securing a job at the United Way.
In 1970 Randy secured a temporary leave from Fort Bragg and returned to his hometown for a visit. He had already decided to finish up his duties with the Army as quickly as possible and wanted to inform his family of his plans. It did not take long for him to look up Vicki and the two picked up where they had left off almost two years earlier. Within weeks, they were engaged to marry.
Vicki's family was concerned when they learned of the couple's quick engagement. In their eyes, the two had not courted long enough and were rushing into something for which they both were not prepared. Vicki explained to her family that she truly loved Randy and that they would have probably married years earlier if Randy had not enlisted in the military. In striving to keep their daughter happy, Vicki?fs family relented and gave the couple their blessing.
On October 8, 1971, following three years of duty, Randy Weaver received an honorable discharge from the Army and moved back home. One month later, in November of 1971, Randy and Vicki were wed during a small ceremony at the First Congregationalist Church in Fort Dodge, Iowa. In an attempt to please Vicki's family, two ministers conducted the ceremony, one from the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints and the other a Congregationalist pastor.
Following the wedding the newlyweds moved into a small apartment two hours east of Fort Dodge, in Cedar Falls. Randy enrolled at the University of Northern Iowa to take criminal justice classes, intending to become an FBI agent. Nonetheless, the young couple found the cost of school to be too much for them and Randy eventually dropped out. The couple started selling Amway products to support themselves.
In 1973 the Weavers gave up on their career as Amway marketers. Randy secured a job at the John Deere tractor plant in Waterloo, just outside Cedar Falls, and Vicki got a job as a secretary at a Sears department store. They were both earning modest paychecks and eventually purchased a ranch-style home for $26,000 in a well-kept Cedar Falls neighborhood. They were seemingly quite happy „Ÿ they had plenty of money and Randy was always buying boats, motorcycles and sports cars.
........
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Who cares, "racist", "separatist", loonie or otherwise. The ATF killed his wife and kid. Period. 
Weaver was more like a canary in a coal mine to me.
Weaver was more like a canary in a coal mine to me.
Nightwatch, I agree that Weaver's beliefs don't really matter. However, it does matter that the government, with great support from the media, tried to justify their actions by creating a fictional Weaver family. This seems to very common when the person or persons being targeted are "right wing gun nuts". It's a pretty sad fact that most of America learned about the Weavers by watching a made for TV movie. We all know that Hollywood is fair and balanced (Sorry Fox).
Let's suppose Randy Weaver was all the scumbag racist wacko that the Establishment made him out to be:
Nothing in his attitudes or actions justifies what the Feds did.
If they can do it to him, they can do it to anyone, including the blind flag waving Law & Order My Country Is Not To Be Questioned! types.
And someday, very likely, they will. And those that survive will wonder how their free country became a police state.
Nothing in his attitudes or actions justifies what the Feds did.
If they can do it to him, they can do it to anyone, including the blind flag waving Law & Order My Country Is Not To Be Questioned! types.
And someday, very likely, they will. And those that survive will wonder how their free country became a police state.
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