what is "good" iron sights marksmanship?
- Thread starter mainecoon
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Good is better than you just did.
Don McDowell
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Assuming the rifle and ammo are up to it, 2moa should not be out of the question with regular "open" sights, and tighter with peeps and appropriate front sights.
rockhopper46038
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With only a sling, if you can maintain 4moa out to the limit of your rifle's effective range, you are skilled more than most.
Justin
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Go shoot three position small bore rifle competition and you will get a solid idea of what constitutes "good" pretty quickly.
There really shouldn't be any significant difference in accuracy in practical situations UNLESS:
1. The target is hard to see and/or very small and the scope's magnification aids in that task.
OR
2. The shooter can not see the iron sights properly. (e.g. I can still shoot aperture sights very accurately, but open rear sights are becoming problematic.)
I say "in practical situations" because it is certainly true that it's not likely you'll be consistently shooting sub-moa, one-hole groups with an ironsighted gun.
But if we're talking about practical applications and targets and sights that are visible to the shooter's naked eye, there shouldn't be much difference.
1. The target is hard to see and/or very small and the scope's magnification aids in that task.
OR
2. The shooter can not see the iron sights properly. (e.g. I can still shoot aperture sights very accurately, but open rear sights are becoming problematic.)
I say "in practical situations" because it is certainly true that it's not likely you'll be consistently shooting sub-moa, one-hole groups with an ironsighted gun.
But if we're talking about practical applications and targets and sights that are visible to the shooter's naked eye, there shouldn't be much difference.
Jim Watson
Member
It has been a while since I shot much .22, and that with a pistol; but just for comparison.
My BPCR Metallic Silhouette and Midrange scores using vernier tang rear and globe front sights are competitive with scope shooters'. As are scores in general, I am not a phenomenon.
Now, that is on clearly defined targets. I would still want a scope for any hunting or "tactical" shooting with fuzzy targets.
My BPCR Metallic Silhouette and Midrange scores using vernier tang rear and globe front sights are competitive with scope shooters'. As are scores in general, I am not a phenomenon.
Now, that is on clearly defined targets. I would still want a scope for any hunting or "tactical" shooting with fuzzy targets.
This. Oh my god this. I'd given up rifle shooting for a long time because my grandfather always insisted on teaching us with iron sights and I just can't see the damn things even with my glasses on. Killed my interest as a teenager pretty quickly.
Curator
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"Iron sights" can actually be more accurate than a scope IF they are used correctly. Double aperture sights used in small bore and Olympic competition rifles require a correctly sized target to get perfect alignment. That's the reason for the different sized black rings on targets for different distances. From a proper bench rest position my 7.62X51 target rifles will easily shoot the same with double aperture "iron sights" as they will with a 10X scope attached. Patridge (post & notch) type sights are not quite as precise but I have seen shooters who could shoot right up there with the double aperture guys. All but the highest quality scopes can have parallax issues and most are sensitive to varying eye placement or cheek-weld. This is usually not a big issue but can detract slightly from accuracy.
With irons (not peep apertures), shot prone with a sling, I'd consider a little under 4" at 50 yards to be good. With correctly-adjusted sights, all your shots will be in (or touch) the black of a standard NRA 50 yard smallbore target, and would give you, on average, a score of 80. I'd consider that "good" with iron sights and a sporter rifle.
First you have to quality what "good" is. Then you have quantify it at a particular distance.
Second, what iron sights? Iron peep sights are more precise than the typical buckhorn, notch/bead sights of most .22s.
Point is, if you can shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with basic iron sights, I would consider that pretty good. 1/2" groups with iron peep sights is pretty good. For reference 1" @ 25 yards is 4 MOA, 1/2" is 2 MOA. Most people can't do that
Second, what iron sights? Iron peep sights are more precise than the typical buckhorn, notch/bead sights of most .22s.
Point is, if you can shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with basic iron sights, I would consider that pretty good. 1/2" groups with iron peep sights is pretty good. For reference 1" @ 25 yards is 4 MOA, 1/2" is 2 MOA. Most people can't do that
Not only that but the Palma matches are shot at 1000 yds and those boys use very refined aperture sites like you mentioned
d2wing
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I used to be able to shoot one hole groups at 40 meters with a M14. That is with Military peep sights. With an biathlon competition rifle I could hit a 4 inch circle at 100 meters offhand. Now I would be hard pressed to see both sights. I did not realize when I was young that I had superior eyesight and was a naturally good shot. But then after the Army and Vietnam I avoided guns for many years. Just try it you may surprise yourself.
BCRider
Member
WOO HOOO! ! ! ! Apparently I'm not as blind as I thought ! ! ! ! ! 
Not tooting my own horn.... well, I guess I am but I'm not fibbing either.
At my clubs 20 yard indoor range I often shoot a 1 to 1.25 inch group from a prone non rested position. The rifle being a Henry H001 or my rather old and crusty Remington Model 6 single shot with basic iron sights. If I use a rest for the front stock I can easily get under 1 inch. This from the guy with 60 year old "old guy eyeballs" and struggling to hold the rifle steady....
Translating that out to 50 yards and I'm still in the running....
For center fire from a front rest I can generally manage 3.5 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards. The odd time I'll be all twitchy and it'll be a lot bigger but generally I can see well enough to keep it within the 4 inches. Rifles in this case being my Marlin 336 or Win 94 or either of my Mosins IF I'm using something other than the poor milsurp junk.
I never really thought that this was all that great since I often read folks saying that they get 1.5 to 2 inch groups using rifles with plain iron sights such as milsurp rifles, Winchester 94's and the like. So I never would have thought I was really in the running at all.
When I was sighting in my Lyman Great Plains flinter it also shocked me by matching this 4 inch "eyeball limit" for grouping.
So all in all I've got 4"/100yard eyes it seems. With target peeps I find I can cut this down by a bit to probably more like 2.5 to 3 inches at 100.
For those of us with "old guy eye'tis" do NOT discount the value of a good high contrast target. I put up with poor targets and blobs of red spray paint for a long time. I finally broke down and bought some 8 and 12 inch "Shoot N'C" targets for my 100 yard and out farther shooting. I cannot believe the difference. It's like I got back 50% of my lost vision. For scopes it really doesn't matter that much other than at the extremes. But for unaided Mk I eyeballs used with old plain irons the sharp black on white of these targets makes the contrast really jump. And the big spatter patterns sure do make it easy to see the hits through a scope or even decent binos.
Not tooting my own horn.... well, I guess I am but I'm not fibbing either.
At my clubs 20 yard indoor range I often shoot a 1 to 1.25 inch group from a prone non rested position. The rifle being a Henry H001 or my rather old and crusty Remington Model 6 single shot with basic iron sights. If I use a rest for the front stock I can easily get under 1 inch. This from the guy with 60 year old "old guy eyeballs" and struggling to hold the rifle steady....
Translating that out to 50 yards and I'm still in the running....
For center fire from a front rest I can generally manage 3.5 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards. The odd time I'll be all twitchy and it'll be a lot bigger but generally I can see well enough to keep it within the 4 inches. Rifles in this case being my Marlin 336 or Win 94 or either of my Mosins IF I'm using something other than the poor milsurp junk.
I never really thought that this was all that great since I often read folks saying that they get 1.5 to 2 inch groups using rifles with plain iron sights such as milsurp rifles, Winchester 94's and the like. So I never would have thought I was really in the running at all.
When I was sighting in my Lyman Great Plains flinter it also shocked me by matching this 4 inch "eyeball limit" for grouping.
So all in all I've got 4"/100yard eyes it seems. With target peeps I find I can cut this down by a bit to probably more like 2.5 to 3 inches at 100.
For those of us with "old guy eye'tis" do NOT discount the value of a good high contrast target. I put up with poor targets and blobs of red spray paint for a long time. I finally broke down and bought some 8 and 12 inch "Shoot N'C" targets for my 100 yard and out farther shooting. I cannot believe the difference. It's like I got back 50% of my lost vision. For scopes it really doesn't matter that much other than at the extremes. But for unaided Mk I eyeballs used with old plain irons the sharp black on white of these targets makes the contrast really jump. And the big spatter patterns sure do make it easy to see the hits through a scope or even decent binos.
rockhopper46038
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Go to an Appleseed and throw in magazine changes and position transitions to see if you can still hold that 4MOA standard while on a timer. With practice, anyone ought to be able to do it, but you may find your first attempt...humbling.
rskent
Member
With my service rifle, I am very disappointed (pi$$ed) if I shoot a 8.
With my 22 trainer, I am OK if I can keep it in the black at a hundred.
That's about 6”. It never ceases to amaze me how much harder it is
to shoot a 22 than it is to shoot a 223.
With my 22 trainer, I am OK if I can keep it in the black at a hundred.
That's about 6”. It never ceases to amaze me how much harder it is
to shoot a 22 than it is to shoot a 223.
45_auto
Member
^^^^^ What rockhopper46038 said.
The Appleseed iron-sight standard is 4 MOA, which works out to 1 inch at 25 yards. I'm an Appleseed instructor, and my experience has been that only 10% of first-time Appleseeders will be able to qualify by the end of a 2-day session (and that's wiith a lot of them using scopes). Very often the ones who do qualify are the women and new shooters with no experience who are willing to learn, and have no bad habits they have to "unlearn".
We typically have 30-40 people at a meet, and as I said, it's unusual to give out more than 3 or 4 "rifleman" patches. So I would say that if you can consistently hold 4 MOA from field positions, you would rate as better than 90% of the people out there, which is "good" in my book.
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Billy Dixon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Dixon Sorry - I just couldn't resist. The stand-off continued into a third day, when a group of Indians were noticed about a mile east of Adobe Walls. It is said that Dixon took aim with a quickly borrowed ( Big 50 ) .50-90 Sharps (as, according to his biography, he only had a .45-90 Sharps and felt it could not reach) buffalo rifle and fired, knocking an Indian near Chief Quanah Parker off his horse almost a mile away on his third shot.
I have an ancient Springfield .22 bolt action - single shot - iron sights - manual cock that is absolutely dead on. I have used soda bottles; & first shot , take off the top, second shot the bottle shoulder, third shot , the bottle base. 50 - 60 yards .
Aren't the time limitations a major factor in the Appleseed events?
I know that my on-target results are much different if I'm required to fire a certain number of round with a mandatory reload in a relatively short timeframe than if I have all day to make my shots.
In fact, upon reflection, I will admit that as another advantage of optical sights. Because they don't require as careful alignment as irons, they can be an aid to faster shooting.
The Appleseed AQT has 4 stages. 2 of those stages have time limits that push most shooters pretty hard. The other 2 stages have a time limit, but it is long enough that you do not need to worry about it.
The last AQT stage (stage 4) is done prone, 10 rounds, and the time "limit" is 5 minutes. The targets are approximately 4 MOA (represent sight picture of a man size silhouette at 400 yards) and that stage counts double when scores are added up. In terms of measuring MOA ability of the shooter with his or her rifle/ammo, from an 'unsupported' field position (sling only), stage 4 of the AQT should be representative.
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