What is hunting (breakoff from separate thread)

[JWarren]

Breaking this out of this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=335302&page=2


Guys, here is my take on it. I started this because I am not entirely OK with the definitions given about hunters. I'll attempt to elaborate below.

I see 4 distinct types of "hunting." Obviously, these are Archtype categories. More than likely, elements of two or more of these exist in various degrees in most hunters. No one is a "Pure" anything


Sportsman/Trophy Seeking

Horns. We are talking about horns here. Food isn't what drives this hunt even if the meat will be eaten. There is no concern for methods of the hunt or kill-- only that the goal is reached.

Stalking

This is more of a hunt for the sake of the hunt. Repeatedly, we see stalkers come here (who thought you'd see the term "stalker" used in a positive manner in this day and age?) expressing concern for fairness in the hunt. These like the challenge of the hunt. While horns are nice, and meat may be eaten, the driving force behind the hunt is the challenge and experience of the hunt itself. The method is more important than the results.

Canned Hunting

Making an effort not to be disparaging, canned hunting isn't anything more than shopping. On a positive note, this MAY be the first step in getting a new person into hunting. In many families where hunting is not a tradition, this may be the only way to wet your feet into the world of hunting. On a negative note, I can't imagine getting a sense of pride for that.


Hunting

I actually use the generic term "hunter" as a specific type. To me, a hunter is one that has no concern for horns. A trophy is not the driving force of the hunt. They are not driven by the challenge of the hunt. Purely speaking, they are meat hunters. A freezer full of venision is the criteria for a fruitful hunt. While they would love to see a trophy deer, it isn't enough of a force for them to alter their hunt towards that goal. While they could enjoy stalking, they either don't have the situation, time, skill, or equipment to do so.


Hound Hunting/ Drives

Best motive I can see is the social aspects. I am awaiting someone with experience in this area to ellaborate on Motives/Positives/Negatives.


I post this not to disparage any group, nor am I seeking to elevate any group. I thought that it may be a good idea to attempt to give this topic some structure.


A Disclaimer: In the above criteria, I would be considered a "Hunter."



EDIT: For the purposes of this thread, I am omitting Waterfowl Hunting.



-- John

 

[ojibweindian]

I suppose I'd be considered a "hunter".

Big racks are nice, but a trophy rack is not my primary concern. Canned hunting is no big deal to me either. Setting up on a food plot in a house isn't my idea of fun, but I'd do it, with nary a complaint, if that was the means available for me to fill the freezer.

Stalking is exhilarating; my favorite way to hunt, but I just don't limit myself to that particular "style".

In the end, as long as my freezer contains deer meat, then I'm fine

 

[surjimmy]

Me too.

 

[harbinger_j]

Duck Hunting?

Being a new hunter I have not yet hunted a deer. I have hunted duck and state stocked pheasant. Not sure where these fit into the definition.
How about this for a definition of hunting:
Leaving your residence/property to shoot a game animal that is not yet your private property.
I don't have a problem with any hunting but obviously some methods and hunts are much more challenging and interesting than others.

 

[Bitmap]

When you broke this thread off you missed one important aspect of the previous thread: method

The deteriorating argument was not over motivation (horns vs. meat) it was over method. Usually, it starts with "You don't walk 20 miles in the snow uphill both ways? You aren't a real hunter." and goes from there. Some folks want to insult anyone that sits in a blind. It's only hunting if you hunt on XXXX acres of public land. Hunting with dogs is bad. Hunting on private property is not sporting and people that do it should be insulted. I could suggest that the one's doing the insulting for that may suffer from envy, but I don't know that. Guys with iron sighted rifles say guys with scoped rifles aren't hunters. Guys with iron sighted handguns say that guys with rifles aren't hunters. Guys with compound bows say that anyone with a firearm is a murderer instead of a hunter. Guys with primitive bows say that guys with compound bows are Rambos. Guys that use an atlatl (spelling?) and a spear say the guys with bows don't know how to stalk and the guys that use spears without an atlatl say the guys with atlatls are wimps.

The attitude is "Anyone that doesn't do things the same way I do is not a hunter" or isn't giving the deer a sporting chance, or is an armchair hunter.

Everyone doesn't live in the same place with the same conditions and same opportunities. Here is some news on that subject: Everyone doesn't want to live in the same place and hunt in the same way.

I'm done with this.

 

[JWarren]

Being a new hunter I have not yet hunted a deer. I have hunted duck and state stocked pheasant. Not sure where these fit into the definition.

Good call on ducks. I really didn't factor Waterfowl-- or any fowl into this. I may need to think on this one.

How about this for a definition of hunting:
Leaving your residence/property to shoot a game animal that is not yet your private property.
I don't have a problem with any hunting but obviously some methods and hunts are much more challenging and interesting than others.

Frankly, I am not crazy with the definition.

I'll explain:

Leaving your residence/property to shoot a game animal

I've never hunted on any property but my own. I don't see where property ownership comes into this. Some hunt on public land. Others hunt on their own land. Some hunt with permission from the landowner.

shoot a game animal that is not yet your private property.

Again, what is the fixation with property? Technically, the deer on our land are state property. But I don't see the state feeding them or taking care of them. And a resident of the state just can't come in and shoot them on our land.

I don't have a problem with any hunting but obviously some methods and hunts are much more challenging and interesting than others.

Hence my breakdown of various types of hunting and their motives. YOU may see challenge and interesting as valued components, and others may not. This is where the tendency to create a moral hierarchy begins-- people impose THEIR values into the hunt and use that as a gauge to measure others.


I'll ponder the Fowl thing.


-- John

 

[Bitmap]

How about this for a definition of hunting:
Leaving your residence/property to shoot a game animal that is not yet your private property.

So if I shoot a deer or turkey on my farm it isn't hunting, just because the animal was on my property? If I shoot doves as they fly over my back yard, that isn't hunting?

Here is an example of that "You have to be on public property to be a hunter" attitude. I fail to see how the animal being on public vs. private property has anything to do with this.

 

[JWarren]

Bitmap wrote:

The attitude is "Anyone that doesn't do things the same way I do is not a hunter" or isn't giving the deer a sporting chance, or is an armchair hunter.

Everyone doesn't live in the same place with the same conditions and same opportunities. Here is some news on that subject: Everyone doesn't want to live in the same place and hunt in the same way.

I'm done with this.

Your view is EXACTLY why I broke this off. I frankly get disgusted with the need for some to elevate themselves or their view above others. I think you and I see through the same lens.

-- John

 

[Ske1etor]

I don't think you can break them down into four categories though. Many hunters cross those lines at times and some evolve from the "Hunter" to the "Trophy Seeker" as they mature and want more out of hunting.

I hunt for many different reasons. I hunt because I love being outdoors. I hunt because I love fresh meat the way the the G man intended it. I hunt because my father hunts and him and I connect that way. I hunt because I live in the City and hunting is just another excuse to get into the woods and get muddy. I hunt because I would one day like to have a huge whitetail rack hanging on the wall of my living room. I hunt because I am a hunter.

I don't hunt for the sport, I don't hunt for the meat (As in I don't need the meat, I like it but I don't require a kill to survive.) I don't hunt for the rack.... I hunt because I am a hunter. I can't explain it anymore than that.

 

[JWarren]

Ske1etor,

That was why I said:

Obviously, these are Archtype categories. More than likely, elements of two or more of these exist in various degrees in most hunters. No one is a "Pure" anything

I was looking as distinctions, not evolution of views.

-- John

 

[JWarren]

As I think it through, I need to add a seperate category:

Hound Hunting/ Drives

The only motive I can understand is community/social. I'm not a dog hunter, and I've had a bad taste in my mouth over it with some dog hunters. So, I'll ask that someone come in to give some motives/postive/negative attributes. It's a little too alien to me to give a good analysis.


-- John

 

[XDKingslayer]

The only thing I will add is this:

Until the people who complain about the "fairness" of a hunt start killing their animals with their bare hands they should shut up.

 

[JWarren]

Until the people who complain about the "fairness" of a hunt start killing their animals with their bare hands they should shut up.

I personally agree. When you start arguing the fairness of gear, you start your path down a VERY slippery slope that ends with running around naked, barefooting and tackling game. I have yet to meet a hunter that has killed a deer with their teeth.


-- John

 

[Bitmap]

I hunt because I am a hunter. I can't explain it anymore than that.

Seems I read a story about someone asked an Indian what his tribe would do when the bison were gone and he replied "Then we'll hunt mice because we are hunters."

 

[Bitmap]

As I think it through, I need to add a seperate category:

Hound Hunting/ Drives

Quote:
Until the people who complain about the "fairness" of a hunt start killing their animals with their bare hands they should shut up.
I personally agree. When you start arguing the fairness of gear, you start your path down a VERY slippery slope that ends with running around naked, barefooting and tackling game. I have yet to meet a hunter that has killed a deer with their teeth.

Now you are starting to look at the method vs. motivation I mentioned earlier. As I see it, the whole debate about hunting with dogs is about method, not about motivation.

 

[MCgunner]

I hunted a feeder this whole year and not one deer, though there are plenty out there. "Canned" hunting, to me, is high fence exotics or something. There's stand hunting, still hunting, what I call "feeder watching" (involves a stand and can include food plots), spot and stalk, (not sure what you are calling "stalking"), pass shooting (doves) upland bird with dogs, even leaving out ducks. Of course, geese are similar to ducks. There's predator calling at night, night hunting hogs, fox and hound on horseback, falconry, bow fishing is really hunting, squirrel hunting (sit by a tree and pick 'em off when they come out), jump shooting rabbits, ah, what else???? Let's see, I guess it's dogs, but I've known guys that hunted coons at night with hounds on mules. Not far from hunting lions with dogs, I reckon, except for the mule. There's gator hunting, really, more like fishing. Hang a big hook with a chicken on a wire over the water such that only a big one can reach it, come back later and if a gator is hooked, pop him in the head. And PETA thought spring traps were cruel? Oh, yeah, there's trapping, both spring traps and live traps such as with hogs and then there are snares. Whew, what else? Rattle snake hunting with a snake stick, we have a "rattle snake round up" in Texas every year. Uh, lessee.........

 

[JWarren]

Bitmap,

Oh, I agree with you. I was just getting a little content in at the time as I was formulating my thoughts. Method cannot be ignored. To me, it seems that method is often an key point with the arguement of some groups of hunters-- especially stalkers.


My belief frankly is that method follows motive. A person not interesting in the "experience" and "challenge" of the hunt is less concerned with method to a degree. Some odd birds like me are more concerned with a massively lethal shot where the animal has VERY little possiblity of prolonged suffering. Oddly, humanitarian motives drive my hunts in a strong way.


-- John

 

[Bitmap]

I understand that is some parts of Europe you can (or maybe you could at one time) hunt at night by moonlight, no artificial light allowed. That seems like an interesting method.

 

[XDKingslayer]

I personally agree. When you start arguing the fairness of gear, you start your path down a VERY slippery slope that ends with running around naked, barefooting and tackling game. I have yet to meet a hunter that has killed a deer with their teeth.

Yup.

I don't care what tools you use. I don't care if you use a .50 cal and shoot your game from 3 mountains away. I don't care if you bait your animals. I don't care if you do drop out of a tree with a bowie knife between your teeth.

I only care that you don't waste the meat, that you respect the environment, that you enjoy it, and that you continue to pass hunting along to others.

Why does it matter to you how I hunt?

It used to matter to me. I grew up hunting in Pennsylvania. Pa. has some pretty strict hunting laws compared to some states. I did look down on people that used vehicles or baited animals. But I realized that who am I to care or criticize.

I don't run out and grab walleye from the lake with my bare hands. I use lures or bait. What's the difference between taking a fish with bait or an animal with bait?

 

[JWarren]

Bitmap... true.

That is why the "German" recticle on scopes is a VERY thick crosshair that narrows to fine in the center.

But one has to remember... in that part of Europe, it gets dark MUCH later, as I understand it. From my understanding, it is not much more than hunting at twilight here.

-- John

 

[JWarren]

Ha..Ha... I wonder if I left out a category...

While we are talking about equipement...

I took out 4 with vehicles. Lets see... One with a Mistubishi Eclipse, One with a BMW 328, and Two with a Jeep Grand Cherokee.


-- John

 

[MCgunner]

I only "CARE" that you obey the game laws. Beyond that, do what you want for what ever reason you have 'cause beyond that, it ain't none of my damned business.

Oh, yeah, folks hunt from vehicles in Texas on private ranches. They're set up with high seats. I like the term "Texas war wagon".

 

[Bitmap]

I only care that you don't waste the meat,

I'll be crucified for saying this but I don't even care if you "waste" the meat. As long as you don't exceed the game limits the game population benefits the same from the hunting whether you eat the meat or not. Waste is kind of ambiguous. How do you waste meat? Leave it in the field and it will be gone soon. Coyotes, buzzards, coons, rodents, worms, ants, wasps, pigs, they love it when you waste meat in that manner. If you waste it by not eating everything on your plate, either you dog will enjoy it or the mice, ants, worms, bacteria, etc. at the dump will have a feast.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, the game laws as I've read 'em require you to make every effort to find and collect the animal. So, I guess "wasting" as in leaving it for the coyotes, would perhaps be violating the law. That would be the only reason I'd care, one way or the other. If you shoot a deer and don't want it, though, I'll take it, I'll gut it, I'll butcher it, and if it's just the work you want to avoid, I'll even give you some of it (not the backstraps, though).

 

[308win]

It seems to me that harvesting, taking, killing (whichever term you choose) of animals is a function of motive and method. Sportsmen, poachers, market hunters, whom-ever are comprised of these two variables. As I think about it the only action that doesn't fit is elimination of nuisance animals which adds another motive - as long as it is legal I may not be an adopter/adapter of the method and/or motive but it isn't any of my business.