What is more powerful? .38 or 9mm?
- Thread starter sniknah
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In case of .38Spl vs. 9x19 the secret lies in avg. max gas pressure of each cartridge which Europeans refer to as Po. The 9 Luger is not more powerful then .38 Special.
158 gr. @ 1,150 = 464# KE for the heavy handload
Cor-Bon shows their 115 gr. 9mm +P @ 1,350 = 466# KE
Loosedhorse
member
Well, what do we mean by powerful?
I seem to remember hearing about some guy named Elmer Keith who started hot loading the .38 Special in those old .38/.44 S&W revolvers. I wonder if that ever amounted to anything?
The only folks I remember hot-rodding 9mm were some IPSC folks a couple decades ago, because it was right on the cusp. In contrast, most .38 Specail ammo had trouble meeting minor.
Perhaps we should also consider that, for .38, you're limited usually to 5-8 shots before a reload; but it's not unusual to have 18-20 shots of 9mm. And a faster reload.
I seem to remember hearing about some guy named Elmer Keith who started hot loading the .38 Special in those old .38/.44 S&W revolvers. I wonder if that ever amounted to anything?
The only folks I remember hot-rodding 9mm were some IPSC folks a couple decades ago, because it was right on the cusp. In contrast, most .38 Specail ammo had trouble meeting minor.
Perhaps we should also consider that, for .38, you're limited usually to 5-8 shots before a reload; but it's not unusual to have 18-20 shots of 9mm. And a faster reload.
withdrawn34
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Also, a small 38 will never be as small as a small 9. Simple issue of overall cartridge length and cylinder vs. magazine thickness.
Stevie-Ray
Member
Gun rags used to say, in general, 9mm was squarely between .38 Spl, and .357 Mag in power.
JustinJ
Member
When it comes to ammo of roughly equal power 15+ beats 6.
Yahtzee4U
Member
I would agree that a nine seems to have the .38 beat on more than a couple of levels. Straight stats favor the nine in MV, ME, capacity, size, weight......which leaves the .38 with reliability and nonpicky ammo. IS there really a huge difference in actual "one stop shot" ability? According to the M&S study I believe the .38 special has a one stop of around 78% (real bullet, not that glaser blue crap), and the nine has a 91% one stop shot. I have no idea if those percentages are something to base your life on, but I guess it's another stat to use. I personally own a .357 that I have filled with .38's.
Onward Allusion
Member
Carry one of each. A 9mm 15+1 pistol and a 5 shot 38spl snub as backup.
Hammerogod
Member
.38 Special +P vs 9MM ... it's a push.
There is so little difference that it's no difference at all.
Pick the one that offers you the widest variety of loads.
Pick the one you are most comfortable with.
Pick the one that YOU can use with the best end result.
I'm a .38 guy and I have shot (and/or owned) everything that is legally available.
That says something.
There is so little difference that it's no difference at all.
Pick the one that offers you the widest variety of loads.
Pick the one you are most comfortable with.
Pick the one that YOU can use with the best end result.
I'm a .38 guy and I have shot (and/or owned) everything that is legally available.
That says something.
mgmorden
Member
Though there are other ".38's", by and large the default assumption when just ".38" is stated is .38 Special.
The only .38 weaker than .38 Special that I know of is the old .38 S&W, which is very rarely used these days.
That aside though, "IMO" isn't relevant since this is a math problem and not an opinionated issue. 9x19mm at equal bullet weights is more powerful than .38 Special. .38 Special +P is more powerful than standard 9x19 but that's not a fair comparison. .38+P compared to 9mm+P puts the 9mm ahead again.
Not much to debate there - the numbers don't lie. That said, while 9mm is mathematically superior, the advantage is small enough that the two can basically be considered equal in power for all practical purposes.
Claude Clay
Member
i think a lot of these questions have a lot to do with
whether you are throwing them or catching them...
whether you are throwing them or catching them...
Remo223
member
^no, it comes down to basic math. That is if you believe in the science of the math. if you don't you look to the statistics generated by the police shootings. Muzzle energy equations show 9mm the clear winner. Police shooting stats probably show 158grain 38special +P++ semi wadcutter hollowpoint as the superior load. There is an argument to be made for real world stats and against mathematical muzzle energy. If theoretical numbers were all that mattered, then 45ACP would not be worth spit and would never have lasted even through ww1 as a viable weapon.
9mm>38 special. Done. It's due to a SAAMI limitation. End of story.
Yeah, you can argue handloads or specialty ammo that makes a 38 as good as a 9mm.
Then you can argue a special 9mm load that makes it as good as a 40.
Then you can find 40 ammo that is more powerful than 45.
Then you can eventually argue your 38 is just as powerful as a 50BMG.
Yeah, you can argue handloads or specialty ammo that makes a 38 as good as a 9mm.
Then you can argue a special 9mm load that makes it as good as a 40.
Then you can find 40 ammo that is more powerful than 45.
Then you can eventually argue your 38 is just as powerful as a 50BMG.
SmokeJensen
Member
9mm to the heart and 38 to the hand = 9mm wins.
38 to the heart and 9mm to the hand = 38 wins.
I have no idea where math is a factor here. Sounds like some of you guys are missing the point. Ballistics show 9mm is hotter than standard 38 but without proper training and shot placement neither one is very useful.
To the OP. 9mm is hotter than 38. I think 38 special is about the same as 9mm. Not too sure. I don't think numbers when choosing. The 38 super might top them all. Some really hot 38 hand loads can top the 9mm in the number department if you really want to use 38. I think this is a question of semi vs revolver. Not a math question or statistics question. Both are good small caliber SD choices. I like 9mm. Its like asking your buddy "hey man. Do you like the blonde on the right with the big butt or the one on the left with the big boobies?" That's a epic decision.
armsmaster270
Member
Tomcat47: You are a little low on your 38Spl +P+ Pressures
Since this is still being debated
I'll add more.I had a Ruger SP101 it show a "low end" .357 mag Win. 110 JHP @ 1,208 fps = 356# KE
Glock 19:
Winchester 124 Ranger T +P @ 1,212 fps / 405# KE
Winchester 127 Ranger T +P+ @ 1,238 fps / 433# KE
Compared to just about any and all 38 loadings, the 9mm holds more rounds, has more power, and produces less felt recoil due to semi-auto vs revolver platforms.
rio nueces
Member
You can easily get over 450 ft.lbs. energy from a .38 special, and that's with heavy bullets of swc design.
I'm comfortable with a 9, but for 'heavy' work the .38 is what I would prefer.
Here's just one of many examples...
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)
Compared to a 9mm semiauto, the .38 sp. revolver is more reliable, more user-friendly, less complicated, easier to operate, doesn't toss your brass away, easier to check loaded status, doesn't require a magazine.
I'm comfortable with a 9, but for 'heavy' work the .38 is what I would prefer.
Here's just one of many examples...
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)
Compared to a 9mm semiauto, the .38 sp. revolver is more reliable, more user-friendly, less complicated, easier to operate, doesn't toss your brass away, easier to check loaded status, doesn't require a magazine.
Axel Larson
Member
I actually believe the 9mm round is more powerful out of a two inch barrel than a 38special is. Like revolvers get a Taurus 905.o or a ruger blackhawk convertible.
mgmorden
Member
Debatable - modern semi-autos are not the "jamomatics" that many old timers love to rant about. Most have reliability levels on par with revolvers. They can go 10's of thousands of rounds without any malfunction.
Depends on the gun. What's so complicated about a Glock for example? Insert magazine, rack slide. Pull trigger when ready to shoot. That's it - it doesn't have any other further normal usage instructions, and is no more complicated than a revolver.
Only relevant if complexity leads to some shortfall in another area, which in many cases it doesn't.
That's the same thing as user-friendly, and addressed above.
That is indeed an advantage, and is one thing I like DO like about shooting my .38, but realistically in a "duty" or self-defense situation this point is irrelevant. It's only relevant during target/recreational shooting.
Which is a false sense of security. From the rear-end not only are the top and bottom cartridges hidden from view, you also can't tell without flipping the gun around (rather unsafely) whether or not you're carrying loaded ammo or a cylinder full of spent brass.
I don't think we can start picking out parts that one has and the other doesn't and calling the lack of that part an advantage. I could just as easily say that the auto "doesn't require a cylinder".
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rio nueces
Member
My experience has been that semiauto pistols do tend to jam - even Kimbers (total lockup - could not be fixed at range) - malfunction drills are common at 'combat' matches, and 'smiths make a fortune off semiauto 'tune-ups'
While working at a shooting range I have seen many jams involving semi-autos.
Magazines can be lost or damaged. Sometimes, if there is a magazine disconnect you can't fire the pistol at all then. A cylinder is not easily or normally removed from a revolver and lost or misplaced.
As an 'old timer' named Elmer Keith once said "If you have any part of a revolver, you have it all".
It takes much training to always remember to release the safety, especially under great stress (not all semiautos are Glocks).
A double-action pull is generally far superior on a revolver than on a semi-auto.
Semiautos (including Glocks) are dependent on near-perfect ammo.
Controls vary on semi-autos. A lot. If you don't constantly train w/ your carry pistol only you could easily become confused under stress - not a good thing!
Ejected cases may not be a good thing - especially when they hit you in the eye! Or you are expecting them to.
And... .38 sp. w/ easily obtained +P ammo or cheap reloads is more powerful than an equally hot 9mm.
Consider in addition to velocity, bullet weight and shape. A revolver easily fires blunt, flat, or SWC hollowpoint bullets of heavy weight.
From http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check,
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)
While working at a shooting range I have seen many jams involving semi-autos.
Magazines can be lost or damaged. Sometimes, if there is a magazine disconnect you can't fire the pistol at all then. A cylinder is not easily or normally removed from a revolver and lost or misplaced.
As an 'old timer' named Elmer Keith once said "If you have any part of a revolver, you have it all".
It takes much training to always remember to release the safety, especially under great stress (not all semiautos are Glocks).
A double-action pull is generally far superior on a revolver than on a semi-auto.
Semiautos (including Glocks) are dependent on near-perfect ammo.
Controls vary on semi-autos. A lot. If you don't constantly train w/ your carry pistol only you could easily become confused under stress - not a good thing!
Ejected cases may not be a good thing - especially when they hit you in the eye! Or you are expecting them to.
And... .38 sp. w/ easily obtained +P ammo or cheap reloads is more powerful than an equally hot 9mm.
Consider in addition to velocity, bullet weight and shape. A revolver easily fires blunt, flat, or SWC hollowpoint bullets of heavy weight.
From http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check,
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)
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Gato Montés
Member
Wow, this debate is still going?
Both cartridges are medium sized service class rounds designed to do the same thing; provide a good power to control-ability ratio for the end user. Anything you can do with a 9mm you can do with a .38, and vice versa. I really doubt the slight extra power the 9mm has alters much in the real world.
I'll be happy with either one.
Both cartridges are medium sized service class rounds designed to do the same thing; provide a good power to control-ability ratio for the end user. Anything you can do with a 9mm you can do with a .38, and vice versa. I really doubt the slight extra power the 9mm has alters much in the real world.
I'll be happy with either one.
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