9mm all that much better than .38 special?

[antediluvianist]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but exactly how much more ME does a "standard pressure" (non +P or +P+) 9mm. 115 grain round have over a standard pressure .38 spcl. 158 grain round ?

Second question is, assuming the 115 grain 9mm. bullet to be HP, and the 158 grain .38 spcl. bullet to be LSWCHP , does anybody have data on the difference in "stopping power" on "one-shot stops" or any of those sorts of "effectivity"-type measuresbetween the two rounds?

Between a +P 9mm and the FBI load (.38 spcl. LSWCHP +P)?

Basically, there are so many people putting down the heavier .38 special in favor of their 115 grain 9mms, and I wonder about that. Thanks.

 

[Erich]

Personally, I am happy with either the 147-grain 9x19 or the 158-gr .38 +P. Shot placement + adequate penetration = effectiveness. I can't speak for the logic followed by others.

 

[RON in PA]

I am of the opinion (based on Fackler et al) that in a handgun the most important factor after shot placement is penetration. You need to get in their and muck-up the vitals. The 158 grain LSWHP +P 38 special load is one of the few out there that seems to generate a consensus of approval. Out of 4" barrel it has good penetration and expansion. The 147 grain JHP 9x19 in its current form is good at the same thing and police on the West Coast think highly of it, as does the RCMP.

 

[tbeb]

9mm 115 gr. bullet at 1150 fps (non +P) equals 337 foot pounds of energy. .38 special 158 gr. bullet at 755 fps (non +P) equals 200 foot pounds of energy.

9mm 115 gr. bullet at 1250 fps (+P) equals 399 foot pounds of energy. .38 special 158 gr. bullet at 890 fps (+P) equals 278 foot pounds of energy. 9mm bullet at 1300 (+P+) equals 432 foot pounds of energy. 158 gr. bullet at 1050 fps (discontinued Corbon +P+) equals 386 foot pounds of energy.

 

[jc2]

So what? Kinetic energy (at least at the levels developed by handguns) is a factor in handgun effectiveness. So long as there is enough energy to insure adequate penetration and expansion, the difference in kinetic energy is a non-player in handgun effectiveness--gee-whiz stuff that looks good and means nothing.

FWIW, the .38 Special has the clear advantage in both momentum (far more meaningful than kinetic energy), sectional density (again, more meaningful than kinetic energy) and bullet mass (in comparison to 115-grain 9x19 loads). A lot of people who miss the big (or just plain don't know any better) want to just look at kinetic energy and go, "Gee whiz, look at that."

 

[NMshooter]

The difference between the two is about 200 fps on the average. +P+ .38 is roughly the same, if we are talking 4" revolver vs. 4" auto. 9mm is better out of a short barrel. Of course, such differences are unimportant compared to the really important question: Which do you shoot better? A 5 shot revolver that you can hit with is better than a 6-10 shot auto you can't. Or vice-versa.

 

[Jim March]

Bufallo Bore 158+P lead hollowpoint doing 1,000fps from a 2" barrel means 350ft/lbs energy, well into the 9mm range. From a snubby. They'll go faster from a longer tube, right into the lower end of the 357 spectrum.



The advantage the 38 can have is in bullet shape. With no compromize needed for a feed ramp you can run a BIG hollowpoint. Speer's Gold Dot 135 is an example. While down on raw power from most of the 9mm fodder, it wouldn't shock me at all if net effectiveness was still "up there".

 

[DaleJunior]

Is this what you were looking for?

 

[cratz2]

Yeah, I wouldn't get hung up on muzzle energy stats... The 158 Gr 38s typically have plenty of penetration while the standard pressure 115s might lack somewhat in that department. Assuming equal shootability and carryability, I'd rather carry the 158 gr 38s than standard pressure 115 grain 9mms.

Comparing the best loads from each, again assuming equal carryability and shootability, I'd be about equally happy with either the 135 Gr Gold Dots or 124 Gr +P Gold Dots.

Having said that, I can shoot my CR PCR with said 124 Gr +P Gold Dots better and faster than any 38 I've ever tried and that is what is more important to me.

 

[MR.G]

I personally think that the .38 spl +P SWHP has an advantage over most 9mm when fired from a short barrel defense gun. Even though I believe that, recently I switched from a .38 S&W model 638 Airweight to a Kel-Tec 9mm P-11 for concealed carry. I prefer the 11 rounds of 9mm without reloading over the 5 rounds of .38. Both are about the same size and weight unloaded, and the KT also accepts S&W 15 round mags. To me more is better.

 

[355sigfan]

FWIW, the .38 Special has the clear advantage in both momentum (far more meaningful than kinetic energy), sectional density (again, more meaningful than kinetic energy)
END QUOTE

Why do you say that? Is it because it helps with penetration?

Also if I am correct the 38 special standard pressure at 755 fps with a 158 grain bullet has a power factor (momentium) of approximately 120. While a standard pressure 147 grain 9mm at 950 has a power factor of approximately 139. It seems the edge goes to the 9mm not the 38 special. In fact with any given bullet weight and and equal barrels the 9mm is approximately 200 fps faster than the 38 special with standard pressure and +p loads. The problem with the 38 special snub has always been reliable expansion coupled with adiquate penetration. The 9mm has not had this problem when fired from small autos at least with modern ammo. For what its worth my prefered load in 9mm is the +p+ 127 grain Ranger T. I also carry a 38 special 442 smith on some uc assignments. The 38 special is a base line caliber. From a snub its the lowest amount of power I would trust for self defense against human beings. The snub is the best of the pocket guns in my opinion. While my Glock 26 is about the smallest centerfire autoloader I will trust. I have seen smaller 9mm's but none that had a degree of reliability I would trust. The Glock is a belt gun for me. Its too big for pocket carry.

I also feel that energy is a factor in handgun stopping power. Your right I can't prove it. But you can't prove momentium is a factor either.

Pat

 

[ducktapehero]

I consider them about equal. I have heard from knowledgable people that while the 9mm is a little better for 2 legged critters, the 38 is a little better for 4 legged ones(wild dogs bobcats etc) because of the availability of heavier bullets. I guess it just boils down to whether you like revolvers or semi auto's. Although there are a few 9mm revolvers.

 

[Jack19]

Let's see...I can carry fifty plus 9mm rounds, easily concealed, and probably about half of that in .38. Your choice.

 

[jc2]

FWIW, the .38 Special has the clear advantage in both momentum (far more meaningful than kinetic energy), sectional density (again, more meaningful than kinetic energy)
END QUOTE

Why do you say that? Is it because it helps with penetration?

Also if I am correct the 38 special standard pressure at 755 fps with a 158 grain bullet has a power factor (momentium) of approximately 120. While a standard pressure 147 grain 9mm at 950 has a power factor of approximately 139.

Pat -

I didn't say that. I said (with emphasis added this time for you):

FWIW, the .38 Special has the clear advantage in both momentum (far more meaningful than kinetic energy), sectional density (again, more meaningful than kinetic energy) and bullet mass (in comparison to 115-grain 9x19 loads).

The original poster asked for a comparison of 115-grain 9x19 rounds and 158-grain .38 Special rounds. I answered accordingly. I think you know from past exchanges that my favourite 9x19 rounds are the 147-grain Ranger Ts which deliver virtually identical numbers to old FBI load (and even better penetration and expansion).

 

[JohnKSa]

From a Federal Ammunition catalog

Standard pressure 9mm

115gr 1160fps 345ft/lbs
124gr 1120fps 345ft/lbs
147gr 980fps 310ft/lbs

Standard pressure .38spl

158gr 760fps 200ft/lbs

High Velocity +P .38spl

110gr 1000fps 240ft/lbs
125gr 950fps 250ft/lbs
158gr 890fps 280ft/lbs

So even if you compare standard pressure 9mm in similar bullet weights to .38special +P, the 9mm is around 160 feet per second faster and packs around 100ft/lbs more muzzle energy.

To DIRECTLY answer your first question, standard pressure 115gr 9mm beats standard pressure 158gr .38spl by around 400 feet per second and about 150 ft/lbs.

The .38 has an edge in that bullet shape can be optimized for performance rather than reliable feeding, but you be the judge of whether bullet design can make up for a 400 fps velocity deficit or a 150ft/lb difference in muzzle energy.

For your second question:

9mm +P versus the FBI .38 spl +P load.


115gr 9mm+P will run around 1300+ fps for a muzzle energy of around 430+ ft/lbs

There are a couple of "FBI loads" in .38spl +P. The lead HP 158 grain loading is around 900fps for a muzzle energy of about 285ft/lbs. According to what I've seen, gelatin testing says that this loading makes a "wound channel" that is virtually identical to a standard pressure premium JHP 9mm in 147 grains.

If you asked me, I'd say that the best +P loads in the .38spl perform similarly to the best standard pressure loads in 9mm.

That seems a pretty reasonable assessment to me given the "wound channel" comparison similarities and the fact that the 9mm has a decent velocity and energy advantage that holds even when comparing .38+P to standard pressure 9mm.

jc2,

You might want to check your momentum numbers. My calculations show that the standard pressure 115gr 9mm beats the standard pressure .38spl 158gr in momentum. Same thing if you compare 9mm+P 115gr to .38+P 158gr. You can only get the .38 out in front if you compare 9mm to .38+P--even when it comes to momentum.

 

[Nick96]

Ballistically, practically, terminally and every other "ally" - they're about the same. The real difference (for me anyway) is the package they are launched from. Autos give more capacity and for some more accurate delivery. Revolvers offer greater reliability & a simpler operating system. Both can be had in similar sized packages & weights. Factory ammo for both are the least expensive of all the center fire rounds available - so frequent but fairly economical practice is afforded by both.

The revolvers (as a general rule) are cheaper for the same quality, typically available in smaller & lighter packages, are more reliable, simpler and safer to operate & carry under stress. Therefore, the .38 158Gr +P SWCLHP from a small light frame revolver is superior to any 9MM in a similar sized launching platform (for me anyway).

By the way - I own and use handguns that chamber both - and enjoy shooting both. But when the chips are down - I'm going to be more prone to reach for a revolver than an auto - regardless of caliber.

 

[355sigfan]

FWIW, the .38 Special has the clear advantage in both momentum (far more meaningful than kinetic energy), sectional density (again, more meaningful than kinetic energy) and bullet mass (in comparison to 115-grain 9x19 loads).
END QUOTE

Ok that makes more sense. You never did explain why you feel momentium and sectional density are important. I know why you don't believe energy is.

Power factor for a 115 grain 9mm at 1120 fps (standard pressure ammo) is 128 which makes is greater than the 38 special 158 grain load at 750 for 119.

It appears your right on this one John and that Jimco (JC2) miscalculated or made a small error.
Pat

 

[waktasz]

We had a 'stump' match after out last IDPA outing. Object was to cut a 2x4 in have as quick as possible. I saw some .38special not make it all the way though.

 

[jc2]

You're right, Pat. I used the 158-grain +P, not the standard pressure.

 

[JohnKSa]

I did, I used the 158-grain +P, not the standard pressure.

Whether you compare +P to +P or standard pressure to standard pressure, the 9mm comes out ahead in momentum numbers.

The initial question asked for a comparison of standard pressure 9mm to standard pressure .38. The second question asked for a comparison of +P 9mm to +P .38.

The statement that the .38 has a momentum advantage is misleading in the context of the questions asked. It doesn't unless one compares .38+P to standard pressure 9mm.

 

[jc2]

Whether you compare +P to +P or standard pressure to standard pressure, the 9mm comes out ahead in momentum numbers.

Not necessarily, John. There is at least one commercial manufacturer loading a .38 Special 158-grain LSWHP-GC +P to 1000 fps (and that's out of a two-inch snub). That particular load's momentum is higher out of a two-inch barrel than either the 9x19 115-grain +P or the 124-grain +P as well.

The statement that the .38 has a momentum advantage is misleading in the context of the questions asked. It doesn't unless one compares .38+P to standard pressure 9mm.

Yes, John, I know. That's why I replied to Pat and to tell him I had miscalculated (actually used the wrong figures).

 

[DonGlock26]

I have 10+1(soon12+1) rounds of 147gr RangerT JHP's in my G-26 vs. 5 rounds of 135gr .38+P in my 649 snubby. 13 vs. 5 makes my choice an easy one.




Stay Safe,




Don

 

[JohnKSa]

That's why I replied to Pat and to tell him I had miscalculated

Got it--I misunderstood your post in its original form.

...at least one commercial manufacturer...That particular load...

I don't know exactly what to do with special cases, that's why I quoted from a major manufacturer's ammunition catalog. There are some standard SAAMI pressure 9mm loads that get a 115gr bullet going over 1250fps which will "out-momentum" all but the hottest .38 +P. Corbon sells a 115gr 9mm+P load will chrono around 1370fps in some guns which puts it neck and neck with the Buffalobore .38+P in the momentum race. Here's a place selling a 115gr 9mm load with a claimed 1400fps muzzle velocity which would beat the Buffalobore load. I think I'd believe the Buffalobore numbers before I'd trust velocity claims on Russian ammo, but the point is that a single load does not define the performance of a given caliber.

Anyway, I'll revise my original statement...

My calculations show that the standard pressure 115gr 9mm beats the standard pressure .38spl 158gr in momentum. Same thing if you compare 9mm+P 115gr to .38+P 158gr*. You can only get the .38 out in front if you compare 9mm to .38+P--even when it comes to momentum.

*With the exception of a single .38sp+P load sold by a specialty ammo shop for about a dollar a round.

How's that?

 

[MrChicken]

To me, it's not the round, it's the gun that decides this.

At home you are pretty much limiting yourself to a 6 shot gunfight on your part. You hear a noise, get up out of bed with a revo and that's what you've got.

On the street you can reload a revo fast as an auto if you practice like a professional shooter does, but you still need that reload much sooner than you would with a wonder-nine, maybe 12 shots sooner.

I think most of us here could fire 6 shots at close range in 1-2 seconds, some even less. That's probably before a BG knows his heart stopped working and could even fall down. "Shoot until he stops" is probably going to be after you've unloaded the revo. Now what about BG #2, or 3,4,5 ? It'd be nice to have another 12 ready to go, and maybe another 36 in spare mags.

 

[agtman]

"9mm all that much better than .38 special?"


Not really, though 9mm pistols generally have more ammo capacity than any 6- or 8-shot .38 Sp. revolver.

In terms of terminal ballistics, however, the 9-minimeter is basically the ."38 Special" of autoloading cartridges - which is to say "iffy" at best.