what is my 45-70?

[dh1633pm]

I have a 1895G. I am a wuss and won't shoot anything stronger than 325 Grain Hornady Factory stuff. I reload as well. If you don't hold your cheek weld tight, its lights out for a split second. Its load up, load up, load up, get smacked too hard, then load down one level and call it a day.

 

[LoonWulf]

As Bob said, your thinking isnt worng, exactly....As long as you follow proven load data you should be fine.

BUT without a decent understanding of pressure, and powder burnrate, usage etc. NO EXPERIMENTING!!!

If you try to get to 2000fps with a powder thats inappropriate you WILL damage your rifle, yourself or both.

 

[Dr T]

Inappropriate powder nightmare: Double (or triple) charging a big straight walled case with 700-X or Red Dot...

I have had personal doubts about the 45-70 case being used for higher pressure loads:

Are the +P cases used for factory loads the same or stronger than the standard pressure cases?

BTW, I satisfied my hankering for a big bore carbine with a 460 S&W barrel for my Encore. With a 240 gr bullet at ~2300 fps it bites enough for me. I don't worry about the strength of the cases and according to Lyman #49, the pressure and velocity curves are pretty flat with increases in powder.

 

[Llama Bob]

Part of the problem here is that the reloading data folks can't decide what to call the various pressure levels for .45-70. Worse, a lot of the data has bad pressure measurements taken in CUP that aren't necessarily reliable.

If you're looking for data that's clearly within SAAMI spec and safe for your gun, I would recommend the Accurate powders reloading guide, in their "45 Government Standard Pressure (Approx. 28,000 PSI)" section.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web-1.pdf

They cover a wide range of common bullets, enough powders that you can find something suitable, the Accurate powders tend to have good availability, and the data is all pressure tested with modern methods. Something in there will quite likely do what you need safely and without the confusing mess that is the Hodgdon data.

 

[dh1633pm]

The advice on here is excellent. My practical advice is that even loaded fairly weak, the 45-70 will kill about anything that you want dead. There are exceptions of course. I wouldn't trade my 1895G for anything. Its my go to hunting rifle and I have many to choose from.

 

[Llama Bob]

Are the +P cases used for factory loads the same or stronger than the standard pressure cases?

There isn't such a thing as a .45-70 +P case. The issue isn't the case per se (my advice: use Starline), but rather the case head thrust on weak actions. The worst offenders are Springfields and they should be kept WAY down. How far down is a matter of some debate.

Then there are standard SAAMI-strength actions, which is what I think OP has. They can be loaded to 28KPSI. If it's a modern manufacture gun, and you don't know for sure, this is where it lives.

Then there are the high-pressure actions that can take substantially over-pressure .45-70. The first would be the Marlin 336-based 1895 that can take about 40KPSI. The failure point is bolt thrust - the bolt is locked at the back.

The second high pressure action is the modern manufacture Miroku 1886s that can do about 50KPSI. The failure point is again bolt thrust and locking at the back, but the 1886 has much more robust locking bars than the 1895 so it can go a little hotter.

At the top of the heap are the Ruger #1 and Miroku 1885s that can probably do 60KPSI (the #1 Tropical is chambered in .458 WM with no problem), although I would keep them to 55K or even 50K to avoid potential problems with sticky ejection and to keep from being beat to death.

 

[Axis II]

response from cva was..

We follow and adhere to all SAAMI specs for pressure and load capabilities.
*
the main thing I want to do here is load ammo a little cheaper. I get super accuracy from leverevolution but its hard to find around here and at $35-40 for 20rds and being able to produce more ammo is better imo.

if I cant use the certain hodgdon powders such as h335 and h322 I will go with something else. I started with 223 rem and it scared me a little bit but I got used to it. I then went with 44mag and was a little nervous but now I'm not. loading 45-70 scares the living hell out of me say I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

 

[Dr T]

My best advice is to start low and work up slow (0.5 gr increments) weighing each load. Check accuracy and pressure with each test load (look for visual signs of pressure). Stop when pressure signs show up and go with the load that gives you the accuracy you are comfortable hunting with.

 

[theleo]

response from cva was..

We follow and adhere to all SAAMI specs for pressure and load capabilities.
*
the main thing I want to do here is load ammo a little cheaper. I get super accuracy from leverevolution but its hard to find around here and at $35-40 for 20rds and being able to produce more ammo is better imo.

if I cant use the certain hodgdon powders such as h335 and h322 I will go with something else. I started with 223 rem and it scared me a little bit but I got used to it. I then went with 44mag and was a little nervous but now I'm not. loading 45-70 scares the living hell out of me say I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

You are more likely to screw up reloading the 44 mag to the point of catastrophic failure than you are the 45-70. A double charged 45-70 round is a lot easier to spot than a double charged mid range load in the 44 mag. The principles for both are pretty much the same. The 45-70 is just a longer straight wall cartridge.

 

[Llama Bob]

My best advice is to start low and work up slow (0.5 gr increments) weighing each load. Check accuracy and pressure with each test load (look for visual signs of pressure). Stop when pressure signs show up and go with the load that gives you the accuracy you are comfortable hunting with.

Be careful with this advice. Pressure signs like flat primers show up at about 60KPSI (or higher). Straight wall cartridges start to stick in the chamber at maybe 50-55KPSI. So you may not get any pressure signs at all until at about twice what the action is designed for. That's not good from a safety perspective

With low pressure straight wall cartridges, I would recommend using a known-good recipe with modern PSI pressure measurements, like the ones from Accurate I recommended. Then work up in 0.5 grain increments, but instead of using pressure signs, chrono each batch and use velocity as your pressure sign. When you hit the max velocity in the manual (adjusted for barrel length as need be), stop even if you see no pressure signs at all and are under max load. Don't exceed max load and don't continue if you see any pressure signs obviously (but you probably won't in .45-70).

Using velocity as your stop sign is much safer (assuming the load is good in the first place) because it's very resistant to things like differences in case capacity, seating depth, chamber dimensions, primer brisance etc. For a given powder burn curve, the relationship between velocity and pressure is very consistent. So if you're at max velocity, you're also at max pressure whether you see signs or not.

 

[scythefwd]

45-70 gov or trapdoor loads.. keep it away from modern loads...

 

[Llama Bob]

response from cva was..

We follow and adhere to all SAAMI specs for pressure and load capabilities.
*
the main thing I want to do here is load ammo a little cheaper. I get super accuracy from leverevolution but its hard to find around here and at $35-40 for 20rds and being able to produce more ammo is better imo.

if I cant use the certain hodgdon powders such as h335 and h322 I will go with something else. I started with 223 rem and it scared me a little bit but I got used to it. I then went with 44mag and was a little nervous but now I'm not. loading 45-70 scares the living hell out of me say I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

That's CVA's way of telling you that you have a 28KPSI gun.

H322 is one of the best possible powders for .45-70 for hot-ish loads, although it really comes into its own for the higher pressure guns. But it will work fine in your gun. Unfortunately, the Hodgdon data is pathetic. If you want to use H322, let me know what bullet and overall length (make sure you hit the crimp groove) and I can point you at a load either from Load Data, or tweak something in QuickLoad to be the right pressure for your gun.

 

[Varminterror]

Something I have not seen said, so I will, in regard to your manner of thinking - you're not wrong, but you might not really be right yet either.

The Hornady Leverevolution rounds are loaded to SAAMI spec pressure, and are safe for all .45-70 rifles in good working order. However, you may not be able to replicate the VELOCITY of the very same bullet while still staying under the same pressure limit. Hodgdon makes Hornady's specialty powders, so you have a reference to review the exact pressure and velocity relationship, but do not assume you can load to the same velocity and hit the same pressure threshold.

That said, I'm a huge .45-70 fan, and have used the Hornady Leverevolution load for many years. In 2011, I took an 11pt buck which went over 300lbs on the hoof at 250yrds with one. Lots of drop to manage (30" at 250yrds from my Guide Gun, leaving at 1790fps), but it still hits like a truck at range. Recoil is always subjective to the shooter - my wife also shoots an 1895 Guide Gun, most often with Marlin Only level loads. She's 5'3" and 130lbs, never has had issue with recoil from it, her 7mm rem mag, or her 338wm. Moral of the story, though, is you do not need to go over the 28kpsi level to be successful with the .45-70.

 

[Axis II]

Something I have not seen said, so I will, in regard to your manner of thinking - you're not wrong, but you might not really be right yet either.

The Hornady Leverevolution rounds are loaded to SAAMI spec pressure, and are safe for all .45-70 rifles in good working order. However, you may not be able to replicate the VELOCITY of the very same bullet while still staying under the same pressure limit. Hodgdon makes Hornady's specialty powders, so you have a reference to review the exact pressure and velocity relationship, but do not assume you can load to the same velocity and hit the same pressure threshold.

That said, I'm a huge .45-70 fan, and have used the Hornady Leverevolution load for many years. In 2011, I took an 11pt buck which went over 300lbs on the hoof at 250yrds with one. Lots of drop to manage (30" at 250yrds from my Guide Gun, leaving at 1790fps), but it still hits like a truck at range. Recoil is always subjective to the shooter - my wife also shoots an 1895 Guide Gun, most often with Marlin Only level loads. She's 5'3" and 130lbs, never has had issue with recoil from it, her 7mm rem mag, or her 338wm. Moral of the story, though, is you do not need to go over the 28kpsi level to be successful with the .45-70.

How do I know what pressure rating I'm at? Just look on hodgdons and see what they have listed? chronograph? I don't need screamer rounds just something that shoots flat and puts a thumping on game.

 

[Llama Bob]

How do I know what pressure rating I'm at? Just look on hodgdons and see what they have listed? chronograph? I don't need screamer rounds just something that shoots flat and puts a thumping on game.

The fundamental answer is that you measure it - with a piezo pressure sensor, or a strain gauge, or in the old days a copper crush setup. The first two can produce very accurate readings in PSI. Copper crush produces readings in CUP (copper units of pressure). The two are not the same thing, although there is a rough conversion. Copper crush pressure gauges tend to be painfully inaccurate, so whenever you see data in CUP, you should expect trouble unless it's a very well known and heavily used load.

The problem of course is that 99.9% of reloaders don't have any of that equipment. They just have their reloading setup and maybe a chrono. That's where the reloading data comes in. If the data's good, the data supplier has already measured the pressure and velocity for you. What you have to do is pick data where the measured pressure is safe for your gun, and match it. The matching part is a bit tricky though, especially if you have to make any small changes (different primer, different case, different lot # (but NOT manufacturer or product #) of powder, unfired vs. once fired etc.). All of those things will change both your pressure and your velocity a bit, and some of them like powder lots being different you just can't avoid. That's why rather than jumping to the max load, you have to work up. The question is, work up until what? The classic answer is pressure signs, but that's only marginally useful for high pressure bottleneck cartridges, and it's a totally useless answer for low pressure straight wall ones like .45-70. Luckily for cases with bad/no pressure signs there's an alternative - work up to the listed velocity instead of the listed pressure. This works because there's a stable relationship between velocity and pressure for a given cartridge & powder.

Before you can do this, you do have to make sure the velocity listed is for your barrel length. If not it needs to be adjusted.

A problem arises when you need to make bigger changes to the published loads. Things like changing the max pressure to match your gun, verifying suspicious old CUP data, changing to a different bullet or bullet weight, changing the OAL to suit a specific gun or switching between "similar" powders like from IMR 4895 to H4895 - those are all big changes. The easiest way to do that is usually with interior ballistics modeling software like Quick Load. This takes a bit of doing because powders burn differently in straight wall cartridges than they do in bottleneck cartridges, but it can be done. Of course all this pain can be avoided by simply using components for which you have data and not making any changes. That's why I recommended using Accurate powders - not because the powder is any better than Hodgdon for this application (it's not) but because the data is better, so there's less work involved.

Quick Load can also be used to adjust velocity numbers on otherwise good data to reflect different barrel lengths than the test barrel.

If you post with what powder you want to use, what bullet you want to use, and what your barrel length is I'm sure several people including myself can help you find safe data.

 

[Llama Bob]

For example, let's say you want to come as close as you can to the Hornady 325gr FTX load, but using H322 and your spent Hornady cases. This is a bit of a weird one, because the 325gr FTX is "too long" from the crimp groove to tip for .45-70. Hornady compensates for that in the factory loads by using a shortened case. You can mess with the case length like that in .45-70 because it headspaces on the rim and is very flexible about what's going on at the neck. So this load uses once-fired factory cases - use a new production case from another manufacturer, and you will find the bullet seats too deep.

Bullet: Hornady 325 FTX (no substitutions)
OAL: 2.49"
Case: 2.0" Hornady Leverevolution case (or commercial case trimmed to 2.0"). Note you need to check your expander and seating dies to make sure they work with the short case, but most do. Hornady also sells custom dies for these cases.
Powder: H322
Primer: LR
Barrel length for velocity #s: 24" (off the CVA website)
Starting load: 42.5 grains
Expected starting velocity: 1645 ft/s at the muzzle
Max load: 47 grains
Max velocity: 1826 ft/s
Max pressure: 27.6KPSI

This is a QuickLoad created load, but looking at how this data compares to other loads on loaddata.com and the Hodgdon website, I'm quite confident you will not blow your gun up with it. It's not as fast as the factory load, but it's close.

 

[Axis II]

For example, let's say you want to come as close as you can to the Hornady 325gr FTX load, but using H322 and your spent Hornady cases. This is a bit of a weird one, because the 325gr FTX is "too long" from the crimp groove to tip for .45-70. Hornady compensates for that in the factory loads by using a shortened case. You can mess with the case length like that in .45-70 because it headspaces on the rim and is very flexible about what's going on at the neck. So this load uses once-fired factory cases - use a new production case from another manufacturer, and you will find the bullet seats too deep.

Bullet: Hornady 325 FTX (no substitutions)
OAL: 2.49"
Case: 2.0" Hornady Leverevolution case (or commercial case trimmed to 2.0"). Note you need to check your expander and seating dies to make sure they work with the short case, but most do. Hornady also sells custom dies for these cases.
Powder: H322
Primer: LR
Barrel length for velocity #s: 24" (off the CVA website)
Starting load: 42.5 grains
Expected starting velocity: 1645 ft/s at the muzzle
Max load: 47 grains
Max velocity: 1826 ft/s
Max pressure: 27.6KPSI

This is a QuickLoad created load, but looking at how this data compares to other loads on loaddata.com and the Hodgdon website, I'm quite confident you will not blow your gun up with it. It's not as fast as the factory load, but it's close.

thanks for your help! I have about 40 old hornady cases and have some Winchester cases as well. I plan to use Lee dies for this caliber. my main goal for this is to cut cost to shoot more and still have enough powder to drop something out to 150-200yards max.

im not opposed to using a different powder if it would be safer. I wanted to use h322 because I can use in the 223rem but safer always trumps cost and what not.

 

[Llama Bob]

For your winchester cases, you have 3 options:
- Use a different bullet that makes the OAL right
- Use the 325gr ftx, but load longer than max (2.59"). This is only OK if that length doesn't hit the lands in your rifle. You need to make up a dummy round (case + crimped bullet, no powder or primer) and test this.
- Trim the cases down to 2.0" so the 325 FTX/2.49" OAL combo works

The loads will be different than what I listed in the first 2 options, and I can certainly help you once you decide what you want to do. You might start by just loading a dummy round with the lee dies, Hornady once-fire cases and a 325 FTX and see if everything runs smoothly despite the short case.

 

[Axis II]

I don't have the dies yet. I was planning on using the hornady cases because I have so much and that's what they use for 325gr ftx and will save the Winchesters for something later on. I was given a box of 400gr solids and shot maybe 8 of them for the heck of it. using the hornady cases I don't have to trim so I will use them. might pick a different powder to be on the safer side and pick up the lee dies.

 

[Sunray]

"...what's the weight of the rifle have to do with..." Sorry. It's about that Newton fellow and his laws. The Physics of felt recoil. Light weight rifles have more felt recoil than heavier rifles with like weight bullets. The extra weight helps absorb the recoil. Similarly, reducing the bullet weight will do it too. The 250 grain FTX will have less felt recoil than the 325. That ammo will do nicely though.
Unless the maker mentions not to(like the Buffalo Bore stuff), most factory .45-70 is loaded to BP specs because of all the Trap Door rifles out there.
"...but he's 6'6" and 300 lbs..." And 100% irrelevant. I've seen great big guys cry like a little girl over recoil. And little girls shoot circles around great big guys.

 

[Officers'Wife]

There isn't such a thing as a .45-70 +P case. The issue isn't the case per se (my advice: use Starline), but rather the case head thrust on weak actions. The worst offenders are Springfields and they should be kept WAY down. How far down is a matter of some debate.

Then there are standard SAAMI-strength actions, which is what I think OP has. They can be loaded to 28KPSI. If it's a modern manufacture gun, and you don't know for sure, this is where it lives.

Then there are the high-pressure actions that can take substantially over-pressure .45-70. The first would be the Marlin 336-based 1895 that can take about 40KPSI. The failure point is bolt thrust - the bolt is locked at the back.

The second high pressure action is the modern manufacture Miroku 1886s that can do about 50KPSI. The failure point is again bolt thrust and locking at the back, but the 1886 has much more robust locking bars than the 1895 so it can go a little hotter.

At the top of the heap are the Ruger #1 and Miroku 1885s that can probably do 60KPSI (the #1 Tropical is chambered in .458 WM with no problem), although I would keep them to 55K or even 50K to avoid potential problems with sticky ejection and to keep from being beat to death.

You are far more well versed in this subject than I but permit me to add this one observation. My uncle absolutely refused to reload 45-70 and it was the only cartridge he would use only factory loads in. His reasoning was that even though his Marlin could handle "hotter" loads should there be some kind of mix up on the range and my Grandfather try to use one of the "hot" loads in his "swing block" rifle the results would be disastrous. Said uncle worked with hazardous substances most of his adult life and never had an accident. I tend to respect his caution now.

 

[fireman 9731]

One thing you need to be aware of when reloading Hornady 45-70 brass is that if it has been factory loaded with the flex tip bullets, the brass length is shorter than standard length. Its not too big of problem as long as you sort brass and don't mix head stamps. Otherwise, your seating and crimping depths will vary greatly.

 

[Llama Bob]

You are far more well versed in this subject than I but permit me to add this one observation. My uncle absolutely refused to reload 45-70 and it was the only cartridge he would use only factory loads in. His reasoning was that even though his Marlin could handle "hotter" loads should there be some kind of mix up on the range and my Grandfather try to use one of the "hot" loads in his "swing block" rifle the results would be disastrous. Said uncle worked with hazardous substances most of his adult life and never had an accident. I tend to respect his caution now.

This is a good point - I don't like having thermonuclear .45-70 loads around either. All my high pressure .45-70s have been reamed for .45-90, and I put all the hot loads in the bigger cases both because you can get more performance with more case space, but also so that they can't be accidentally chambered in someone's 1895 or whatever.

 

[Varminterror]

You are far more well versed in this subject than I but permit me to add this one observation. My uncle absolutely refused to reload 45-70 and it was the only cartridge he would use only factory loads in. His reasoning was that even though his Marlin could handle "hotter" loads should there be some kind of mix up on the range and my Grandfather try to use one of the "hot" loads in his "swing block" rifle the results would be disastrous. Said uncle worked with hazardous substances most of his adult life and never had an accident. I tend to respect his caution now.

With all due respect - it's really not that difficult, and it's easy to keep things straight. A responsible reloader will never have a problem with accidentally or negligently cross-loading hot loads in a non-compliant firearm.

Lots of very simple tricks which are very common for reloaders prevent this from happening, and of course, the responsible control of "if you're not sure, don't shoot it" takes care of all cross-loading issues.

A reloader can pick certain brass headstamps or colour (nickel vs. brass), certain bullets, or certain primer colours to uniquely identify either hot loads or light loads. If you use nickel brass for all of your light loads, then the rule is simple, never shoot a yellow brass cartridge in your trapdoor rifle. Or vice versa.

I personally use brass headstamp, and occasionally colour to demarcate my 45-70 loads. I do have cartridges where I know by the bullet which rifle it is to be used in and what the powder charge might be.

Keeping things well labeled and organized is the 2nd best line of defense (again, first rule is "don't shoot anything you're not sure about." Simply keeping things well labeled will eliminate a lot of headaches.

Then a guy can use specific COAL's so a few min and a pair of calipers will sort out a whole bin of cartridges.

And of course, there's always the option to disassemble a cartridge out of a group to identify the bullet, charge, and powder.

So personally, for my own 45-70, if I pick up a Hornady headstamp with an FTX bullet, it's a light SAAMI load, built to replicate the Leverevolution factory load. If I pick up the same bullet in Starline brass, it's a hot load only appropriate for my Marlin's and Encore pistol. If I pick up a cartridge with a lead flat point, I know it's a Cast Performance 405grn LFN-GC loaded over a Marlin only powder charge. If it's in nickel brass with a Nosler Ballistic Silver Tip, I know it's a SAAMI load OK for any rifle, if it's the same bullet in yellow brass, it's a hot load meant for my Encore pistol - just a touch lighter than max Marlin Only level.

Lots of tricks to prevent mix ups, even if the label happens to fall off of the box.

 

[BigBore44]

Or simply take a magic marker and color the primer or head stamp. No need for different brass when a $0.99 marker will do the job. And I'll add, I've never found the need to separate LeverEver brass from FL brass unless I'm loading Max and I mean Max loads. Load to the COL you always do and go. I'm sure some will say don't and that's fine. But I load 325 flex tips in FL brass. And 405's in LeverEver brass. Zero issues. Think about it. If you load to the same COL, the capacity inside the case stays constant.