LawScholar
Member
M1A
What is the most impressive 308 battle rifle?
- Thread starter mrpackwolf
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The SCAR is a neat rifle but for the price I think there are better options out there. Not saying it is a bad rifle. They are pretty dang cool.
Going on break, y'all dont beat me too bad while I am gone
Going on break, y'all dont beat me too bad while I am gone
For 25,000 you can put together a Factory Five replicar with 351 crate motor that would positively own a Challenger of any stripe.
A 400hp engine in a 2,400 pound car = 6 pounds per hp. A 470hp Challenger at 4170 pounds, about 8.8 pounds per hp. Lame. Pwned.
That's like which rifle is the undisputed NM champion and fills the top ten slots? M16, not M14. It's more accurate because of the modern design that allows assembling precision parts - without complicated processes. The barrel extension screws into place setting the headspace, not gets pressed in with a hydraulic ram in a semipermanent assembly with a heavy metal receiver that has to also lock the bolt face. That means if YOU want a 1/2 MOA M16, YOU buy a Kreiger stainless barrel, torque it to the receiver on the tool bench, and go shoot. M14? Take it to a gunsmith and hope he does a good job.
Those expensive accurate M14's? Can't shoot the National Match and win. Cheap M16's run them off, and have for years.
That's why the Brits bought the L129A1 - an AR10 - to replace their bolt gun snipers. The rapid fire accuracy was more important than single fire. More armies are doing the same.
It's not about DI, it's about the barrel extension design, which is really the major evolutionary step forward that allows extruded uppers and polymer lowers. Those are something we're going to see more of - the SCAR 17 is a direct descendant in that regard.
A 400hp engine in a 2,400 pound car = 6 pounds per hp. A 470hp Challenger at 4170 pounds, about 8.8 pounds per hp. Lame. Pwned.
That's like which rifle is the undisputed NM champion and fills the top ten slots? M16, not M14. It's more accurate because of the modern design that allows assembling precision parts - without complicated processes. The barrel extension screws into place setting the headspace, not gets pressed in with a hydraulic ram in a semipermanent assembly with a heavy metal receiver that has to also lock the bolt face. That means if YOU want a 1/2 MOA M16, YOU buy a Kreiger stainless barrel, torque it to the receiver on the tool bench, and go shoot. M14? Take it to a gunsmith and hope he does a good job.
Those expensive accurate M14's? Can't shoot the National Match and win. Cheap M16's run them off, and have for years.
That's why the Brits bought the L129A1 - an AR10 - to replace their bolt gun snipers. The rapid fire accuracy was more important than single fire. More armies are doing the same.
It's not about DI, it's about the barrel extension design, which is really the major evolutionary step forward that allows extruded uppers and polymer lowers. Those are something we're going to see more of - the SCAR 17 is a direct descendant in that regard.
allaroundhunter
Member
From a battle rifle? I would like something a little more accurate.
fireside44
member
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- Sep 22, 2009
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Then it wouldn't be a battle rifel.
allaroundhunter
Member
So an M14 isn't a battle rifle because it is accurate out to 300+ meters?
And that was just a personal preference of mine. The accuracy of the Saiga's just don't do it for me.
Ranger30-06
Member
I think 99% of people don't know the true accuracy potential of the .308 Saigas. There are a couple of members on here that routinely shoot sub MOA groups with a decent scope and ammo. I certainly think it qualifies!
allaroundhunter
Member
I know that some of them are capable, but "battle rifles" utilize iron sights for accurate fire. The Saiga's irons are not quite there....and I would pick up an M21 for a sniper/designated marksman role before I would pick up a scoped Saiga...
fireside44
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An FAL is accurate out to 300+ meters, but it is battle rifel accurate, not precision rifle accurate. And if you are looking at national match rifles, they are not battle rifels.
marksman13
Member
The M21 is intended to be scoped. It is a heavy barreled, accurized version of the select fire M14. The M21 was never intended to be a Main Battle Rifle. It is highly specialized for a specific job.
allaroundhunter
Member
An M14 is not precision rifle accurate, that is why they upgraded it to an M21 and M25 for sniping purposes. What I am saying is that most anyone can shoot an M14 more accurately than a Saiga at further distances with iron sights.
Op,
You really can not go wrong with any of the rifles listed. Some are going to be more accurate, more rugged or more of somthing else. But at the end of the day it is your money and your rifle. Buy what YOU want. As long as it is a FAL or AR10
You really can not go wrong with any of the rifles listed. Some are going to be more accurate, more rugged or more of somthing else. But at the end of the day it is your money and your rifle. Buy what YOU want. As long as it is a FAL or AR10
W.E.G.
Member
When someone says "battle rifle" I think to rifles that have actually been used in combat....so that would leave a bunch of the tacticool rifles out in my book.
I would think that most americans would say the M1A where as most everyone else in the free world would say the FAL. If they are both laying on the table and of equal quality (that is a biggie) I would pickup a FAL.
I actually can't think of another 308 rifle that has actually seen combat....and I think that the OP is talking about deployment like the FAL and M1A type rifles have seen.
The only other things that come to mind are....Was a CETME in 308 from the get go, or was that a bodge job by century like the French MAS rifles.
I actually own a MAS 49/56 and while not in 308 it is in 7.5 french they did convert some (with wide ranging results) to 308. I can say that the rifle I have (again in original 7.5) is one of the sweetest shooting rifles I have....very fun. 7.5 is close to 308, and with the prices of 308 on the rise and if you reload it might be another thing to look at, French rifles are very under rated.
I would think that most americans would say the M1A where as most everyone else in the free world would say the FAL. If they are both laying on the table and of equal quality (that is a biggie) I would pickup a FAL.
I actually can't think of another 308 rifle that has actually seen combat....and I think that the OP is talking about deployment like the FAL and M1A type rifles have seen.
The only other things that come to mind are....Was a CETME in 308 from the get go, or was that a bodge job by century like the French MAS rifles.
I actually own a MAS 49/56 and while not in 308 it is in 7.5 french they did convert some (with wide ranging results) to 308. I can say that the rifle I have (again in original 7.5) is one of the sweetest shooting rifles I have....very fun. 7.5 is close to 308, and with the prices of 308 on the rise and if you reload it might be another thing to look at, French rifles are very under rated.
Cecil Sharps
Member
french rifle
how many times was it dropped? i kid i kid
how many times was it dropped? i kid i kid
USSR
Member
DSA Stg-58 with DSA Extreme Duty picatinny mount and Sightron 3-9x40 Mildot scope in tactical rings mounted as low as possible.
Don
Don
mrpackwolf
Member
Thanks very much for all the information. Lots of great points made. Once i save a few more pennies, I hope to have made up my mind. Thanks again!
I remember the last year, 1996, when the USMC rifle team last shot M14's XTC at Perry. It was an end of an era and many were sad when they painted over the M14 logo on the Marine Armorer van.
Talking to the Armorer's and shooters, the M14 required more maintenance than the M16. It broke more parts for one thing. This is to be expected as the M14 mechanism absorbs about 7 times more recoil energy per shot, and yet weighs about the same as the M16. Especially the M16A4’s which are much heavier than the Vietnam versions.
In 1997 I asked Marine Team members how they were doing with the M16, and they said, same offhand, better in the rapids, not as good long range. And that is a fair assessment . The 308 recoils so much more than a .223. To shoot a M1a/M14/Garand well you have to have a good solid position. If you are just an itty bitty out of balance the rifle will knock you out of position. Points you drop in rapid fire, you do not get back standing or long range. Every high master must clean the rapids, and with a high X count. The old saying that you "win the match standing and lose at long range" is a true today as it ever was.
Looking at shooting positions, we old M1a shooters observed that new AR15 shooters had shooting positions resembling squids. They can get away with that with an AR.
If you notice the trend in target shooting rounds is the best ballistic coefficient for the least recoil. Target shooters will accept 1500 round barrel life and the popular target shooting cartridges today , most are 6 and 6.5 mm caliber. This is not because the 308 is not accurate, it is because the 308 kicks too much.
One should however never confuse the criteria for what makes the best paper punching rifle for the criteria of what makes the best combat rifle. No Soldier in his right mind would want to carry my 17 lb AR15 into combat. That thing wore out my shoulder just going to the pitts at Perry. But you have to pork the thing up to shoot well offhand.
I am not a fan of the .223 round, I think the 308 is a better distance round and based on discussions with the father of a battalion scout sniper, the 308 hits much harder. The information relayed was, Junior found that the 223 just did not keep them down at ranges above 100 yards.
the 223 just did not keep them down at ranges above 100 yards.
What's wrong with that is you don't need to shoot the enemy DRT. You just need to incapacitate them. The 5.56 from a 20" barrel met the need with actual combat ranges out to 300-500m maximum. What it added was double the ammo, which means twice as many bullets flying around toward them. The ugly truth is half of all battlefield casualties were hit by non aimed fire. Increase the number of bullets by 100%, you still get twice as many hits on them.
One should never confuse the criteria of what makes the best combat cartridge for what makes a good deer hunting gun. Hump a .30 caliber main battle rifle in combat for months, and you get what the researchers and historians dug up, a dislike to pulling the trigger or carrying much other gear. Entirely the point why .308 was finally dropped for the intermediate rounds that had been knocking on the door since the .276 Pedersen.
We've trended downward in caliber and pushed the effective range out for 200 years, most don't see the forest for the trees.
What's wrong with that is you don't need to shoot the enemy DRT. You just need to incapacitate them. The 5.56 from a 20" barrel met the need with actual combat ranges out to 300-500m maximum. What it added was double the ammo, which means twice as many bullets flying around toward them. The ugly truth is half of all battlefield casualties were hit by non aimed fire. Increase the number of bullets by 100%, you still get twice as many hits on them.
One should never confuse the criteria of what makes the best combat cartridge for what makes a good deer hunting gun. Hump a .30 caliber main battle rifle in combat for months, and you get what the researchers and historians dug up, a dislike to pulling the trigger or carrying much other gear. Entirely the point why .308 was finally dropped for the intermediate rounds that had been knocking on the door since the .276 Pedersen.
We've trended downward in caliber and pushed the effective range out for 200 years, most don't see the forest for the trees.
mortablunt
Member
For the sheer beauty of it, I love an old style wood furniture fixed stock sheet metal FAL with the carrying handle. Just about all 308 battle rifles will make your accuracy demands, but check them before you buy as always. In terms of accuracy, the M14 (M1a) is proven to be a sniper weapon with a scope. I don't have a very big list on my head other than the old standbys of G3, FAL, M14, and CETME.
JustinJ
Member
For weight and balance alone I'd take the SCAR-H over any other. The minimal recoil in spite of light weight is impressive as well. The SDM version has just amazing accuracy potential but the standard civilian version aint no slouch. Yeah, they aint cheap but for guns in the price range they beat the OBR.
Zerodefect
member
Don't forget the LMT .308
The Larue is really nice, but too expensive and I'd like a more normal rail like the LMT.
The Larue is really nice, but too expensive and I'd like a more normal rail like the LMT.
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