theken206
Member
i dont see reformed hoodlum on the list darn it :]
What is your background: Mil, LEA, ??
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bogie
Member
Just where did you go to school? You really need to back there and slap your English teacher around for a little bit...
What kind of answer do you want? What kind of answer are you expecting?
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
Actually, my experience was that the UCMJ exists so that the military, inarguably a society within itself, can function in an orderly manner SO AS to fulfill its mission of national defense.
In order for the UCMJ to work and function, it must have a legal unit that is part of the enforcement process--much like the larger society in which the military finds itself.
Law enforcement is part of that necessity to help ensure our society runs smoothly. Not everyone is a warrior. We are not a Spartan society--and though at times I feel we should be, the Constitution that you and I swore to defend says otherwise.
Domestically, sworn law enforcement works to keep a semblance of order while also working to preserve our freedoms, based upon our laws. As has been stated by scholars since the birth of our nation, we are a nation of laws.
Laws without enforcement are meaningless. A society without order is little more than a jungle. And our judicial system's job, of which LE is a part of, is to keep the order domestically that uniformed warriors like yourself serve to protect.
With that being said, I'm not the world's biggest fan of today's version of Law Enforcement. I've walked, served and lived on both sides of the Thin Blue Line and do not like what I see today.
But like it or not, cops represent enforcement and are a necessary part of any humane society. I didn't much care for the Shore Patrol or NIS back when I had gills and webbed feet, but I did--grudgingly--respect the fact that they had a job to do. How well, skillfully and professionally they did that job determined what kind of respect I had for them--not the fact that they were in the job.
Just my two cents. Keep the faith and thank you for your service. Your generation of vets is making my generation of vets and those before us damned proud.
Jeff
In order for the UCMJ to work and function, it must have a legal unit that is part of the enforcement process--much like the larger society in which the military finds itself.
Law enforcement is part of that necessity to help ensure our society runs smoothly. Not everyone is a warrior. We are not a Spartan society--and though at times I feel we should be, the Constitution that you and I swore to defend says otherwise.
Domestically, sworn law enforcement works to keep a semblance of order while also working to preserve our freedoms, based upon our laws. As has been stated by scholars since the birth of our nation, we are a nation of laws.
Laws without enforcement are meaningless. A society without order is little more than a jungle. And our judicial system's job, of which LE is a part of, is to keep the order domestically that uniformed warriors like yourself serve to protect.
With that being said, I'm not the world's biggest fan of today's version of Law Enforcement. I've walked, served and lived on both sides of the Thin Blue Line and do not like what I see today.
But like it or not, cops represent enforcement and are a necessary part of any humane society. I didn't much care for the Shore Patrol or NIS back when I had gills and webbed feet, but I did--grudgingly--respect the fact that they had a job to do. How well, skillfully and professionally they did that job determined what kind of respect I had for them--not the fact that they were in the job.
Just my two cents. Keep the faith and thank you for your service. Your generation of vets is making my generation of vets and those before us damned proud.
Jeff
Doc Savage
Member
Well best I can say was "none of the above". I'm not military (thought work in support of DOD), or LEO (although volunteer and work with the EMA alot). I've never been a hunter (only the squirrels in the folks pecan trees growing up) and not into shooting targets. I do believe in the 2A individual right to bear arms and support that, but that is not why I own guns.
Really my first gun is more of a heirloom than a tool and shouldn't count. I did finally purchase a handgun this year for SD. Mainly because we purchased land with lots of not so nice critters on it in the middle of nowhere in TX. Not really afraid of home invasion in my neck of the woods, but have always thought a gun would be nice to have, just never had a compelling enough reason until we got the TX land.
I'm the self reliant type and grew up as a country boy in TN. I have been around guns without ever owning my own until recently, but I still learned how to use them and be comfortable with them early on. I honed shooting skills with a BB gun and have been fairly accurate with a gun, guess it's just the country boy genes coming out.
That's my story. Yea, I'm used to being the wierdo.
Robert
Really my first gun is more of a heirloom than a tool and shouldn't count. I did finally purchase a handgun this year for SD. Mainly because we purchased land with lots of not so nice critters on it in the middle of nowhere in TX. Not really afraid of home invasion in my neck of the woods, but have always thought a gun would be nice to have, just never had a compelling enough reason until we got the TX land.
I'm the self reliant type and grew up as a country boy in TN. I have been around guns without ever owning my own until recently, but I still learned how to use them and be comfortable with them early on. I honed shooting skills with a BB gun and have been fairly accurate with a gun, guess it's just the country boy genes coming out.
That's my story. Yea, I'm used to being the wierdo.
Robert
bogie
Member
I've noticed a lot of folks who seem to think that they have to become a cop or a soldier to get into guns... Those are among the professions with the least likelihood of breeding "gun nuts."
Grizzly Adams
Member
Military, LEO, Hunting, Shooting Sports, Pro 2A.
I'd like to know where you get you stats from!
I'd like to know where you get you stats from!
Winchester 73
member
bogie is correct on LE.
I completely disagree on the military assertion.
Hypnogator
Member
1. Retired Army CW4
2. Retired Army Criminal Investigator
3. Lifelong hunter
4. Trapshooter since high school
5. Ardent believer that the 2nd Amendment means just what it says
2. Retired Army Criminal Investigator
3. Lifelong hunter
4. Trapshooter since high school
5. Ardent believer that the 2nd Amendment means just what it says
Grizzly Adams
Member
Winchester 73 said:
And I ask where do you get your stats? I've worked with many of LEO and served 21 years in the military and the majority of both groups were progun. Where do you and bogie get your experience? Or is it just a pull it out of your a$$ knee jerk opinion?
And I ask where do you get your stats? I've worked with many of LEO and served 21 years in the military and the majority of both groups were progun. Where do you and bogie get your experience? Or is it just a pull it out of your a$$ knee jerk opinion?
jjduller1946
Member
bogie,
Thanks for the criticism of my english and poll. I got more than what I expected, poll responses from 255 shooters up to this point. And I found the comments interesting. I was curious about what was driving the views I was reading in anothe thread.
As for my first English teacher, Mrs. Boylan, she is long gone, but bless her soul, she gave it her best shot. Clearly not up to your high standards, but one gripe on my sentence structure out of 255 will have to do.
And for those who responded, Thanks for participating and commenting on my first poll on THR!
Winchester 73
member
First of all ,Old Grizzly your language leaves something to be desired.Now after you do the Lava routine,I will repeat what I said in a thread yesterday:
"I work with over 100 police officers.Most of them can't hit the broad side of a barn.The majority are not into gun's other than lugging them around in the daily course of their work.
Their incredible training consists of qualifying with their Sig .40 every 6 months on a course an 8 year child could easily pass.Very few ever go to the range on their own and almost none are hunters or target shooters.
The Nebraska campus newspapers ignorance has been printed in countless college papers since VT.
The same silly arguments about "civilians" carrying being a danger, that make no sense.
These people(and school admins) are too stupid to ever get it."
So ,I have 20 years of first hand experience with our City's ( and the nations)finest.And I admire almost all these men.
But its an absolute fact.The vast majority are not like most of us on the THR.
The firearm is part of their work assemble:the radio,the baton,the Sam Browne belt.But they do not go to the range,they are not into target shooting ,very few hunt.They are not hobbyist with firearms.They are mostly pro-gun,but not as bogie said"gun nuts".
That's just the way it is.I doubt if my Department, in a city as diverse as Miami Florida ,is much different than most in America.
Of course there will be exceptions.
But overall cops do not gunnies make.Bad grammar but true to life, Old Angry Grizzly.
Stolen from 'loop' on Tombstone thread:"Wanna have breakfast?"
Killermonkey21
Member
1. Active duty military, currently in Iraq.
2. Parents ex-LEO's.
3. Active hunting/fishing since I can remember.
4. Long term girlfriend's father is very pro-2A, its something we agree on.
5. I want my children to grow up respecting and knowing how to use a gun. Being able to hit a man-size target at 250m isn't good, its a requirement.
I have my reasons
2. Parents ex-LEO's.
3. Active hunting/fishing since I can remember.
4. Long term girlfriend's father is very pro-2A, its something we agree on.
5. I want my children to grow up respecting and knowing how to use a gun. Being able to hit a man-size target at 250m isn't good, its a requirement.
I have my reasons
BorisDaBastid
Member
Yep, Military, I give a damn about the whole Constitution that I swore to protect, and I don't really trust our current Administration to live by that wonderful piece of paper.
BorisDaBastid
Member
I know more than a few folks in my infantry company that will never own a firearm due to the military. Most of them have been burnt out on the "go to the range, shoot, shoot, shoot, go back to barracks, and clean the weapon 30 times until the armsroom accepts it" drill.
Winchester 73
member
First of all Boris,thank you for serving and doing the dangerous work of helping to protect us all.
After you've been out of the service 35 years like I have,you and your buddies will almost certainly have a different perspective on shooting and collecting firearms.
It was years after discharge before my interest in guns renewed and began to grow.
Burn out doesn't last forever.You'll remember the good times more than the bad.
Our prayers are with you as you return to Iraq.Come home safely.
bogie
Member
And then there are the folks who are in the military who might touch a weapon once a year for qualification. Mechanics, computer folks, etc... Remember that the pointed end of the sharp thing is pretty darn small.
I -hate- shooting with cops. Too many of them aren't safe, but they've got the attitude to go with that, so just shut up and mind your own business, civilian... We let cops use the range at our PRIVATE club for training, and it seems like there's always at least one in every bunch who gives the members the evil eye, etc.... Get the feeling that someday one of 'em's gonna walk over, and start trying to confiscate on his own...
Oh, and the reason that they shoot your target is because they mean to - not because they missed their own on their lane...
Maybe I've just run into some bad ones, but hey... One bad ambassador, you know?
I -hate- shooting with cops. Too many of them aren't safe, but they've got the attitude to go with that, so just shut up and mind your own business, civilian... We let cops use the range at our PRIVATE club for training, and it seems like there's always at least one in every bunch who gives the members the evil eye, etc.... Get the feeling that someday one of 'em's gonna walk over, and start trying to confiscate on his own...
Oh, and the reason that they shoot your target is because they mean to - not because they missed their own on their lane...
Maybe I've just run into some bad ones, but hey... One bad ambassador, you know?
Grizzly Adams
Member
Well Mr. Winchester 73 I didn't read your post on the other thread that you mentioned and I don't go through the forum looking for your sage words of wisdom!
And as to my choice of words and to being a bit angry. I get very upset when I have a son that goes out on the streets everyday and puts his life on the line for people like you who do nothing but bad mouth him and others like him continually on this forum. Some HIGH ROAD huh?
It's people like you that will brag about what you will and wouldn't do in situations but when you get into real trouble you go calling to the police crying for help and if they aren't there ten minutes before the incident happens then you start shoveling crap on them. Why don't you try going out with these no good so-n-sos sometime and watch when they work a four or five car pile-up on the Interstate and they have to help recover the body parts of a young mother and her 2 year old daughter. I've seen these scenes and its hard to sleep afterwards.
As for your situation in Miami, maybe you should move somewhere else or at least experence the LEO environment of another location! For the last 40 some odd years (21 in the USAF) I've lived all over this country and have worked, associated, and shot, both casually and competively, with the LEO everywhere I've been. This includes Feds down to the City level and have found the majority to be as enthusaistic and pro-gun as any of us.
You make the statement that to the LEO that his gun is a tool just like his asp, cuff, flashlight, etc., and thats true because they are taught to use their brains before force. The gun is the last thing they want to use, and yes they probably could and should spend more time on the range. But how many of us that spend 8 to 10 hours on the job want to take the job home with us or spend another 4 to 5 on Saturday when your children, who are usually asleep when you leave for and return from work, want to go to the park or zoo, or where ever?
Yes, there are bad LEO but are they any different from the rest of society? There's bad among us here on THR, does that make us all bad?
And yes, I am angry, and will continue to stand up and defend the military and LEO as long as I think they are unfairly maligned and bashed. When there have been times calling for criticism, I have been front and center, i.e. the marine throwing the puppy in the ravine. So I will not apologize for my anger or language!
And as to my choice of words and to being a bit angry. I get very upset when I have a son that goes out on the streets everyday and puts his life on the line for people like you who do nothing but bad mouth him and others like him continually on this forum. Some HIGH ROAD huh?
It's people like you that will brag about what you will and wouldn't do in situations but when you get into real trouble you go calling to the police crying for help and if they aren't there ten minutes before the incident happens then you start shoveling crap on them. Why don't you try going out with these no good so-n-sos sometime and watch when they work a four or five car pile-up on the Interstate and they have to help recover the body parts of a young mother and her 2 year old daughter. I've seen these scenes and its hard to sleep afterwards.
As for your situation in Miami, maybe you should move somewhere else or at least experence the LEO environment of another location! For the last 40 some odd years (21 in the USAF) I've lived all over this country and have worked, associated, and shot, both casually and competively, with the LEO everywhere I've been. This includes Feds down to the City level and have found the majority to be as enthusaistic and pro-gun as any of us.
You make the statement that to the LEO that his gun is a tool just like his asp, cuff, flashlight, etc., and thats true because they are taught to use their brains before force. The gun is the last thing they want to use, and yes they probably could and should spend more time on the range. But how many of us that spend 8 to 10 hours on the job want to take the job home with us or spend another 4 to 5 on Saturday when your children, who are usually asleep when you leave for and return from work, want to go to the park or zoo, or where ever?
Yes, there are bad LEO but are they any different from the rest of society? There's bad among us here on THR, does that make us all bad?
And yes, I am angry, and will continue to stand up and defend the military and LEO as long as I think they are unfairly maligned and bashed. When there have been times calling for criticism, I have been front and center, i.e. the marine throwing the puppy in the ravine. So I will not apologize for my anger or language!
Chose military (I'm retired Air Force) but could have gone most of the others. Did a short stint (1 1/2 years) as a reserve police officer. I'm also a hunter, shoot regularly, and stay abreast of 2A issues writing my reps where necessary.
Winchester 73
member
I'm sorry you are so angry Grizzly.And I appreciate what your son ,and all the officer's I work with ,and what every officer in this whole great land of ours, goes through every day.
But, I know all these men personally and just because the majority are not in bogies words "gun nuts" does not make them any less admirable.
So I am not LEO bashing and having spent 6 years in the U.S.Army ,I am certainly not military bashing.
And when have I bragged about MY heroics on THR?Never, because it has never happened.
So I hope you stop being angry,at least at me, and my offer still stands:"Wanna have breakfast?"
I fly for free so I'll meet you in Alabama.
Just say the word,you old bear and I'll be there!
jjduller1946
Member
Good Advice from Nam Uncle, and Thanks
Killermonkey21,
First, thanks for your service in general and in Iraq in particular. I agree with your old 'Nam Vet' uncle, regarding the ass and head!
Please pass on to your buddies serving with you how proud your predessors are for your continued selfless service and amazing commitment to your country and the freedoms we all hold so dear. In many ways, we are part of a still too silent majority. As the media generally glorifies antiwar dissent and often questions those who serve and lead in this (and most any war...except a Bill CLinton war of course).
But they still pay lip serrvice to your service - they support the troops - not the war. Well I support the troops and I want you to win it and come home for what I hope is a break before the next one.
With fond thought and prayersfrom the homefront,
Killermonkey21,
First, thanks for your service in general and in Iraq in particular. I agree with your old 'Nam Vet' uncle, regarding the ass and head!
Please pass on to your buddies serving with you how proud your predessors are for your continued selfless service and amazing commitment to your country and the freedoms we all hold so dear. In many ways, we are part of a still too silent majority. As the media generally glorifies antiwar dissent and often questions those who serve and lead in this (and most any war...except a Bill CLinton war of course).
But they still pay lip serrvice to your service - they support the troops - not the war. Well I support the troops and I want you to win it and come home for what I hope is a break before the next one.
With fond thought and prayersfrom the homefront,
bluestarlizzard
Member
shooting sports, 2nd amendment supporter,
but also becuase i was raised with guns. you forgot about the people that got 'into' guns just because they liked guns. (BTW, that woud be my dad)
but also becuase i was raised with guns. you forgot about the people that got 'into' guns just because they liked guns. (BTW, that woud be my dad)
Grizzly Adams
Member
Winchester,
I shouldn't have made this personal! My mistake! And no I don't recall you personally bragging about your heroics, an idiotic statement made in the heat of the moment. But that doesn't change the fact that there is to much bashing, of some very good people who put their lives on the line for all of us, on this forum!
As for as you and I go, we're OK. I was just venting and wasn't really angry at one person! Just at some attitudes.
I consider all on these forums to be friends, with the like interest, working toward the same goal. And sometimes friends and even family have disagreements. This was one of them and I handled it the wrong way by calling you out personally.
It just happens that based on my experiences and background I have a different opinion from you on this point. So let's just agree to disagree on this one!
As for breakfast, if you are ever coming to Montgomery let me know and it will be my pleasure to buy you breakfast or lunch.
I shouldn't have made this personal! My mistake! And no I don't recall you personally bragging about your heroics, an idiotic statement made in the heat of the moment. But that doesn't change the fact that there is to much bashing, of some very good people who put their lives on the line for all of us, on this forum!
As for as you and I go, we're OK. I was just venting and wasn't really angry at one person! Just at some attitudes.
I consider all on these forums to be friends, with the like interest, working toward the same goal. And sometimes friends and even family have disagreements. This was one of them and I handled it the wrong way by calling you out personally.
It just happens that based on my experiences and background I have a different opinion from you on this point. So let's just agree to disagree on this one!
As for breakfast, if you are ever coming to Montgomery let me know and it will be my pleasure to buy you breakfast or lunch.
Winchester 73
member
Grizzly,
Thank you so much for your generous response!
And the next time I'm going to or be near Alabama, I will PM you and we'll have that get together.We'll fight over the check!
Regards.
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