What is your experience with the P3AT?

Has your P3AT been reliable?

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imas

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Kel Tec owners I'm looking to get some stats on the P3AT. I am currently weighing out the options for tiny guns for my wife. She needs something very small for certain outfits she wears and I prefer that she not use purse carry. The P3AT seems to meet her requirements better than the competition but alot of mud slinging goes on over their reliability. So I want to poll those who have actually owned a P3AT.

If you post that you have had problems it would be helpful to know whether it was 1st gen or 2nd gen.

So far I have reviewed the following:

- Jframe: shes got a hammerless 38 but it is too big in certain situations (come on guys my 5y.o. has bigger pockets than she does in some cases)
- Seacamp: ruled this out because in this caliber hollow points do not have adequate penetration or expansion and the seacamp will not allow use of FMJ, I do not like the limitations on ammo selection
- Autauga: I ruled this one out because of the same ammo limitations and lack of available parts since this company is no longer in business
- AMT 380 Backup: ruled out because this gun is single action and should not be carried with a round chambered, although this seems to be a nice gun to tuck back into a tight space it is not what I'm looking for
- NAA Guardian 380: This gun is going to be too heavy and possibly too thick. Coupled with the possible ejection issues it is less attractive.
- NAA Guardian 32: Still considering this gun. Weight is better than the 380 and is a nice size. Only slightly concerned about ejection issues. Would really personally prefer the last round eject but hear it is hit and miss.
- Kel Tec P3AT: really like this gun, feels great and only concern seems to be reliability. Many reports of trigger pins backing out and breaking. Would like to find out if this is the minority rather than the majority. Not sure. Cheap enough that I'll probably buy one and try it for myself.
- Rohrbaugh: still researching this one but it looks like a winner. A little larger than the other guns but very light. I'll be giving this one some very serious consideration. I might end up with two of these. One for me and one for her. :D
 
I said "100%", but that's not entirely true. While it has been completely reliable, I did have to send it back once. After about 30 rounds, the mag would drop during firing from time to time. Kel-Tec replaced the catch and it has been fine since, probably about 600 rounds through it now. I would buy another in a heartbeat. Considering a P11 for the wife's carry gun. I like Kahrs, but for 3x the price and lower capacity, the KT seems a better option given similar weight and dimensions.
 
Mine was a bit finicky out of the box, but after breaking it in and a bit of sprucing up it works fairly well now.
 
KT claims a 2% return rate but I wonder how many guns are fixed at home by the owners or smiths.
 
Mine had trouble feeding 1st round (pulling slide back to chamber round). In shooting, no FTF's, worked flawlessly. After putting 200 rounds through it, I went to KTOG website and read about the fluff and buff treatment. A Dremel tool and some jewelers rouge and 10 minutes of my time on the feed ramp and I have not encountered any problems whatsoever. It is definately a nice summer carry piece in a pocket holster. My friends try to figure out what pocket I'm carrying it in with about a 25% success rate. I get a kick out of the recoil, you keep thinking it's just a .380 but the jump is impressive. Then you remember it weighs almost nothing and slip it back into the holster and almost forget it's there. I cannot complain about mine at all, it works every time.
 
I had a first generation,and after a bit of fine tuning and a few hundred rounds,it runs flawlessly.I got my GF a second generation that was so finicky about which ammo I used that I sold it and told her to just carry mine.KelTec is really good about sending replacement parts for their first generation guns,but they require that you return the gun to them on the second generation ones.Percentage-wise,that costs too much in relation to the price of the gun to be worth it to me.It can turn a $225 gun into a $325 gun in a hurry if they don't get it right the first couple of times.But there are 2 really good websites for info,KTOG.org.and KTRange.com.Good Luck...
 
Smilies and misfeeds with a first-gen P3AT. I performed a F&B with the same results. I traded it off. The second-gen gun doesn't do it for me in the looks department.

However, I have kept the KT P32 I own as it has never malfunctioned with HPs or FMJs. It rides a lot in a leather K&D pocket holster.
 
KT claims a 2% return rate
Click to expand...

Is this normal/acceptable for a gun manufacturer? 1 in 50 have to go back? Seems kind of high. I was considering a P3AT, but I think I'll wait until the design gets ironed out some more.
 
Sorry, but no way do I believe a 2% return rate (even if some never get shot and others fail and don't get returned.) I'm sure they're "cooking the books" somehow. I frequented the Kel Tec support forums for several years and I had two P-3ATs that were rebuilt more than once. Kel Tec bought one back and I sold the other to someone who was willing to "home gunsmith it".

I currently have a P-32 that works fine after a fluff and buff, a factory rebuild and another f&b. Sure some people get good products but the failure numbers are very significant.
 
My old model P3AT was functionally reliable out of the box with ball ammo for the 250+ rounds. At that point the trigger bar pin loosened up and required lock-tite'ing back in place. That is also about the time the factory magazine cracked. I attributed that to the next round in mag, bullet nose impacting the barrel ramp . It was also deforming my relatively expensive hollowpoints.

So I did the F&B with the ramp mod and have had 0 problems in the last 100 rounds.

I didn't buy my P3AT to shoot the hell out of anyway.

I shoot it every now and again just to keep 'er loose.


It serves its intended purpose very well IMOHO!...at least for me.
 
Mine was an early gun, was and is 100% reliable with all brassed cased .380 ammo I've tried. Won't work with steel cased ammo -- too many failures to extract. CCI aluminum Blazer seemd OK for the one box I tried.

Had to go back to the factory after the assembly pin walked out while shooting and boogered up the frame (after ~200-300 rounds). Gun continued to function despite the damage -- I stopped shooting it when I noticed the pin was half out while changing magazines.

Factory service was fast turn-around. I made the mod described at: http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/assemblypin.htm and have had no problems since.
Got ~800 rounds thru it.

--wally.
 
I've got the second generation, about 6 mos old now. I've put about 300 rd through it.

Work right out of the box? HAHA not hardly. I knew it needed breaking in, lots of lube, etc., but after 200 rds of all kinds of ammo, and cleaning it every 25 - 50 rds, it was not extracting about 50% of the time.

Then I finally found the "magic" bullet it likes, Speer Gold Dot. I've put 100 of that through it now so far with ZERO hiccups. I am amazed. I was ready to give up on it and send it back or trade it.

I'm not entirely happy though, because now I have this really great pocket gun, but it only works with one type of ammo (granted, I haven't tried them all, but probably 8 different brands/styles though). I'll probably just keep it, carry it a lot, shoot it a little, and keep it stoked with GD's. There's nothing else out there that light and small.
 
I was at a range a couple of weekends ago and a fellow had the pin back out of the trigger on his P3AT - he said it had been perfectly relliable up until then, once he'd broken it in. The symptom was that the trigger pivots, but doesn't cock the hammer far enough to release. We tried to push the pin back into position at the range but no joy. KT said it couldn't be field repaired and so he sent it in for them to work on. But the experience soured him on the gun, and when I saw him in a gun shop this past week he had just bought a KT P11.

My P3AT has been pretty reliable, but not totally so (an occasional FTF still happens.) It's not easy to keep putting a box of ammo thru it each range trip because it really isn't much fun to shoot, although I do find it to be remarkably accurate for its size, weight and sights.

I keep carrying mine because of its size and weight - it really does disappear in a pocket of all but my tightest jeans. But I'm giving serious thought to a Kahr both for its higher power cartridge and its legendary reliability. I haven't tried one in a pocket yet, though, so it may not be a real alternative. But if it fits, this is the kind of gun you (hope to) only buy once, so a few hundred extra bucks one time is something you just factor into the household budget.
 
I've a Kahr PM40 and love it, but there are times when only the P3AT will hide and its a lot better than nothing or the little .25ACP I used to carry in these situations. (I'd replaced the .25 with the KelTec P32, and the P32 was in turned replaced by the P3AT, both Kel-Tec guns are lighter than the .25 was). Maybe some day I'll actually see a Rohrbaugh and replace the P3AT with it, but at $900+ I sure ain't going for one sight unseen!

--wally.
 
Well it certainly seems to be a great gun. But there have been so many problems. I think it is a good design (could be tweaked a little) but it seems Kel Tec does not pay attention to what is leaving their shop.

I have worked in a CNC shop before and what this tells me is there are two possibilities or possibly a combination of both. I have been on part inspection and I have been on CNC machines and I know what it takes to make good parts so the choices are simple.
Either
1. KelTec's small pistol design is flawed
or
2. KelTec's quality control is poor (a machine shop should measure each part for this type of application, make sure they are holding consistant size and quality)

I think there may be some minor flaws in the design. There may be a couple of things that need tweaked like the trigger pin. I see there is a dremel fix for it. I think KelTec has shown the desire for improvement. They have redesigned the P3AT in an attempt to make it more reliable. And it does seem that they are trying to work on their QC. So I think I will buy one or two KelTec's to try them out. I will give them a chance and try to get them working 100%. I will not compromise reliability for size or weight however. With the research I have done I have realized that the good out of box results atleast out number the bad.
 
Wally that brings up an excellent point. I am going to purchase a Rohrbaugh soon. I think I'll wait until after the holiday season though. Since my contract at work is up for grabs and this time of year tends to get expensive.

I know the dimensions are very similar but does the Rohrbaugh feel as small as the Keltec?

I think I will buy the following and we'll see what survives:

NAA Guardian 32
Keltec P3AT
Rohrbaugh R9s

If my wife likes the Rohrbaugh we might end up with two.
 
+++++++++ From imas +++++++++++++++++++
Well it certainly seems to be a great gun. But there have been so many problems. I think it is a good design (could be tweaked a little) but it seems Kel Tec does not pay attention to what is leaving their shop.

I have worked in a CNC shop before and what this tells me is there are two possibilities or possibly a combination of both. I have been on part inspection and I have been on CNC machines and I know what it takes to make good parts so the choices are simple.
Either
1. KelTec's small pistol design is flawed
or
2. KelTec's quality control is poor (a machine shop should measure each part for this type of application, make sure they are holding consistant size and quality)
+++++++++++++ (snip)

imas

I think you're right about the two problems, but Kel Tec has both. An example of this is the assembly pin. It's basically the same design through all their pistols - basically a straight steel pin with a small groove that a hairpin spring catches in to hold it in place. It can work (stay in place) O.K. if everything is done right. Kel tec has had problems at different times with the pins on the original P-11 and on the P-32 and the P-3AT. They turn out pisols for a while that are fine, then they produce a batch that the pins work out of . (It was particularly bad on the early P-3ATs, but still occurs on all the pistols occasionally.) They blame poorly machined parts and fix the problem for a while and then it happens again and again and again. It could have been fixed once and for all by redeisigning the pin with a more fool-proof retention scheme or they could maintain a very strict QC. George Kelgren refuses to change the design and the company's employees seem incapable of maintaining the quality needed. If they can't maintain the quality, they need a more robust design.
 
Not sure if mine is first or second gen. I bought it new about 1 and a 1/2 yrs. ago. It's O.K. Worked fine after a thorough scrubbing. KEEP VERY CLEAN!!!
after about 100 rds. it starts to have some hang ups. Great little gun for it's intended purpose.

Don't compare to seriouse guns for accuracy or anything of the sort.
Great for it's intended purpose but not my gun of choice.
 
My 2nd Gen P3AT was not reliable at all until I had over 200 rounds through it (about 85% FTE's using WWB and Wolf FMJ). After that, it was 100% reliable with WWB and Hydra-Shock. I didn't do any F&B, though. I shot the recommended 200 rounds of carry ammo, and it was 100% reliable.

After a range trip, though, I took the gun apart to clean & lube it and this is what I'd found:
P3-ATslidedamage.jpg

I e-mailed Kel-Tec, sent them my slide, and they sent me a new one:
newP3ATslide.jpg

Apparently the 'divot' behind the extractor is the 2nd photo is normal, though I'm not sure why it is necessary.

So my experience with the P3-AT is that it took a while to break-in, when it was broken in the slide was damaged, and now I have to start break-in all over again with a new slide. At least I didn't have to pay anything to get the slide replaced. I'm giving Kel-Tec the benefit of the doubt on this - with any manufacturer you will have a few bad guns make it out the door. If the new slide doesn't meet my expectations, I'm probably going to look into a Kahr.

Something else to consider: the recoil on a gun this small can be a little intimidating; if your wife is anything like mine, she wouldn't want to practice with this gun enough to be proficient with it.
 
albanian, Gixerman1000, lsutgr1974, Orvanic, Sam Cade, VG

Anyone who voted "not even after factory repair" have any comments? I'm very interested in your experience.

George Kelgren refuses to change the design and the company's employees seem incapable of maintaining the quality needed.
Click to expand...

Assuming they are using the appropriate equipment and it is properly maintained and calibrated, I believe the employes are very capable of maintaining the quality that is necessary. But anyone who has worked in this type of environment will tell you that they are forced to hold the tolerences set by the management. So if management set loose tolerances in order to allow faster production your job depends on meeting those requirements. High tolerance machining jobs take alot more time and will quickly limit production capabilities.

This I beleive is where design and engineering comes in. If there are common problems with a design you need to figure out how often things are going wrong. In KelTec's case it is much too often. So if they are not willing to slow production down, then they need to make some modifications to the design. There is no excuse in any industry for known problems to go uncorrected. (especially in self defense applications) Also if there are problems with quality control then steps need to be taken to correct these problems before parts leave the job floor.

For instance at the shop I was previously employed, we had some problems with a tap that we would grind. Well after a short time we were forced to take corrective action or lose business. We did a spot check on every fifth tool during the machining process. They were then given to someone to inspect. Every fifth tool was checked by this person for certain dimensions and then every single tool on the pallet was checked for the problem that we were having. I can tell you that hundreds of parts were sent back and often numerous times. How did we acheive the needed speed? Overtime and some retard screaming at us.

You have a problem, you diagnose it, you find a solution, you find a cost effective way to implement it. Bam! Your 30% QC problem just became a 1% problem. So even if it costs a little money your profits will go way up because more people will buy your product and you will be faced with less repairs.

It is not a problem with the P3AT's design that seems to be causing problems it is the management. Very often a design will be changed to fix a problem that is in manufacturing even though the design itself may have been fine. You have a problem...fix it. All the greats have had lots of problems over the years...Colt, S&W, Ruger, Taurus, Glock, everyone. But how often they let it happen sets them apart.

I really like the KelTec design and it seems that they have alot fewer problems than many of been led to believe. I do plan on buying a couple maybe in 32 and 380. I'm not bashing KelTec here I'm just trying to be realistic and look at the problems honestly. It seems that the majority of the guns coming out of KelTec are fine. I will include the ones that took a light fluff and buff because I think highly of these guns and I do that to many of my guns to smooth them up. Even most of the big manufacturers guns can use a little attention after they leave the factory to sweeten them up. Even though there are a few kinks to be worked out this is a great gun if you are aware of the issues and able to correct them if thay come up.
 
I have a bunch of FG P-3ATs and a couple of SG P-3ATs.

The P-3AT is pushing the envelope with its power to weight ratio. This is more pronounced when the pistol is new and the rough spots haven’t been worn off. I recommend installing a NAA (gray) or Bersa (black) finger extension during break-in and long range sessions (your hand will thank you). After the P-3AT is broken-in (or F&B) I still suggest finger extensions during range sessions with hot ammo such as Cor-Bon or Santa Barbara. Regrettably, some folks can't control limpwristing and refuse to try finger extensions while becoming familiar with these featherweight mouseguns. With a lifetime warranty, there’s no excuse for an unhappy owner selling me their P-3AT at half price but some folks do :)

(click to enlarge)
sghcb-fghcgs.jpg
 
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