What makes a 1911?

[4thHorseman]

An article came out in a magazine that stated other gun makers like Sig and Glock may start making 1911 like S&W did.
The question now becomes what determines a 1911? If Glock made one with a safe trigger is that a 1911. If Sig made one with a Sig action, Ruger action, and so on. Where is the cut off point to be a 1911 stop. External extractors don't count I guess, maybe the grip safety then........ a double action 1911?
When does it become a 1911 in name only?

 

[C.R.Sam]

Hi 4thH
To my thinking it isn't a 1911 unless it was made precisely to the specs of 1911. That even rules out the 1911-A1.

But it doesn't restrict to specific manufacturer.

Betcha I am in a tiny minority with that one.

Sam

 

[Old Fuff]

Sam ...... Ya know, I'm getting to enjoy you.

The Government Model is a like another famous Colt product - the Single Action Army, Model of 1873. The Colt Company designed it and was it's exclusive producer until World War Two. Then in the early 1950's a company in California called Great Western started to produce an "almost like the original" copy.

Today a whole lot of companies are making copies, clones and reproductions of the Single Action. Some follow the1873 design while others are "improved" - sometimes enough to have little in common with the Colt other then cosmetics.

The same can be said of those that make copies, clones and reproductions of the Colt model 1911 or 1911-A1.

To answer the question. Because of the old guns unparalleled popularity everyone wants to get in on the act. And to separate their product from the others many will deviate from the Colt/Browning design one way or another. I guess if you want the real thing you'll need to buy a Colt. But that's not to say the new kids on the block don't have merit. You'll have to be the judge about that.

 

[MaterDei]

When all of the parts are interchangeable with the original it is a true 1911. Anything else is just a modified 1911. The compacts and ultras, though they have some intrchangeable parts and are often wonderful firearms, are just knock-offs of the original.

Moses Rules!

 

[Pendragon]

Some people say that only the "originals" are 1911s.

Some, like me think that anything that has all the major features and looks substantially similar is ok to call a 1911.

The way I see it, "1911" is a general term that describes guns that have a certain look and feel that evokes the original gun. They can be hi-cap if you must have them that way (no thanks). They can have DAO triggers if you must (no thanks) and they can be calibers other than .45 ACP if you must (again, pass).

I see the idea of a "1911" as a "system". If it has the same pointability, manual of arms and excellent trigger and looks at least somewhat like the original, then heck, call it a 1911 - people will know what you mean.

I would like to get one of those little STI 9mm or .40 slim 1911 guns - and I like my Valtro a ton, and I like the big Casull 1911 that shoots that hot round - what is it? Those guns all work the same way, so I would call them all a 1911. I am a big fan of the "system" more than any particular pedigree.

YMMV.

 

[rayra]

same barrel mount and lockwork, same trigger, interchangeabiltiy of parts, = '1911'. Whoever makes it.

 

[BluesBear]

The funny thing, Colt was just about the last gunmaker to call their pistol a 1911. It has only been in the past few years that they have made anything with the official title 1911. Since 1911 Colt has always called their pistol the Colt Government Model. The first variation on that name was the 1991A1.
Of course I am only referring to full sized pistols here since the Commander style pistols were never US Gov issue they shouldn't be classified as a true 1911.

However I doubt anyone would argue that Commander & Officers ACP pistols are "1911 style".

I credit the various gun gurus in popularizing the term 1911 style pistol.


Just my tuppence.

 

[Tamara]

When attempting to be specific, I will usually refer to "1911-type" guns. (After all, a ParaOrd double-stack LDA compact is pretty far from JMB's original design, but it goes in the same showcase as all the other Colts, Kimbers and Springfields.)

However, if someone asked what was on my hip, I'd reply "a 1911" for the sake of simplicity.

What's amusing is how some folks (who I assume are relatively new to the sport) respond on this topic. Had a guy in the shop the other day, looking for a "nice holster" for his Kimber CDP. I pointed him to a couple of rigs by Bianchi and Galco that I referred to as being "pretty good 1911 holsters." He looked at me with a puzzled expression and said "But I have a Kimber."

 

[SapperLeader]

Personally I view the 1911 family in two categories. Theres 1911s, which to me are single stack, single action pistols, in the caliber of your choice, and theres ones which are similiar in design but are dao only, double stack. Both look similiar, and I like both types, but personaly to me, a 1911 is a single stack single action pistol, not neccesarily in .45(I prefer mine in 9mm.)

 

[Zach S]

I guess single action would be the thing that I use to distinguish a 1911. I still consider widebodies to be 1911's, even though some of the parts wont swap over, its still the same basic design. Anyone who can detail strip a single stack, can do so to a widebody as well.

I dont consider LDAs to be 1911s. I call them LDAs instead of 1911s.

 

[Lictalon]

The trigger/safety set-up. I went to a Kimber for that trigger and safety design...in a host of other good features, it's the trigger that really makes that gun a shooter.

The Browning lock-up should also be there...a Beretta Stock is not a 1911, even if it does have a frame mounted safety and can be carried c&l.

But after that, it gets a little loose...an external extractor does not a 1911 make, nor does a ramped barrel or double-stack mags. Frankly, I think the idea of the 1911 system is right on...and I think more manufacturers are going to play with that system...

Which would be nice, as the GM is very good, but improvements can be made...and have been.

My .02

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

when it stops being a linked, non ramped barrel single action without a firingpin safety, with grip safety, and thumb safety in steel or aluminum that takes single stack magazines, it stops being a 1911.

 

[dsk]

Remember there are plenty of AK variations out there too, some with little actual parts interchangeability with an original Soviet-made AK-47.

Colt's Series 80 pistols are not fully interchangeable with original government-issue pistols unless you intend to disable the firing pin safety. Ditto for Kimbers. So obviously you can't say a 1911 has to be in strict conformance with US military specs, otherwise most of the new pistols being made today aren't really 1911s. In fact, a barrel out of a GI pistol won't even fit in a new Colt unless you trim down the barrel hood!

Unfortunately it's a grey-area issue. I don't consider Llamas to be 1911s, yet they share the same manual of arms and are functionally identical. Of course, everytime you see a "round-up" article in a gun rag the Llamas are in there alongside the Kimbers and Springfields. So just how far you're willing to go out on a limb before you no longer call a design a 1911 is up to you.

Me, I prefer to always say "1911-type" and be safe.