What makes a good "defensive" levergun?

Okay. I said this earlier. Staying within the question a 357 will do fine.

A 158 gr 357 that gives you 1500 in a 6" revolver will give you 1800fps in a 16" barrel. Explosive expansion but will still give you an entrance and exit wound. Yes a 44 will make a bigger hole but do you need it?
 
Once you've had an entrance and exit wound the rest of the power is lost for SD.
 
So I know this is the rifle section, but we are talking about the lever gun platform and since no one else has brought this up yet I will. IMHO the modern lever gun really does its best as a defensive platform in .410.

As far as I can tell there are three major reasons, once you decide to use a lever gun as your home defense firearm why .410 is the best choice.

First I would like to say that the Henry Model X appears to be the best off the shelf lever gun for this purpose no matter the caliber. I think it has the best lever loop, and stock set up for lights/ lasers/other add ons of the tactical lever guns offered from respectable brands. In addition it receives high quality 3rd party support for modern tactical, skeletonized furniture if you so wish to replace the stock furniture from Henry.

On to the three major reasons why I think .410 is the best defensive chambering for a levergun.

1st: Capacity. The various defensive lever platforms (model x, Marlin dark, etc) in .357, 44 mag, and 45 colt all seem to have a capacity of around 7 rounds. The Henry Model X in .410 has 6. While that is one less round, it can use buck shot. .410 buckshot in 2.5" chamberings tend to have 4 000 buck pellets. So to me it's more like having a capacity of 24.

2nd: Noise/Energy/Mass on target. In comparison to the pistol calibers .410 000 buckshot has IMHO the best combination of low noise, ft/lbs, and mass of all the options. Out of an 20ish" barrel you are likely to be getting a velocity in the 900 to 1050 fps range. This means that you are getting a subsonic load without the need of a suppressor. The pistol calibers all pick up velocity on the other hand, making them more effective but almost necessitating a suppressor. Also I know that sub sonic plus suppressor is even better, and can be done with .38 & .44 special to almost mouse fart levels of quiet, but that's a lot of hassle for perhaps questionable ballistic results, and lengthening an already long firearm.

3rd: Courtroom Optics. If you are calculating in how a lever gun looks in a courtroom vs a scary semi auto black rifle then you might as well maximize that calculation. You see lever guns make the already legendary. 357 and .44 magnum calibers even scarier. Speeding up their projectiles, and guaranting that those nasty hollow point bullets do the most damage they can. While a .410 shotgun is and always will be the smallest, weakest shotgun that everyone knows is best for old women, and to teach children on. They shoot the bare minimum amount of buckshot to even have a chance of being effective compared to fearsome 12ga.

I have various additional reasons why I think .410 is the optimal use of the lever gun platform, that all basically revolve around the idea of maximizing the general purpose uses of such an un optimized platform, but those are for another thread.

Finally I apologize again for mentioning a shotgun in the rifle section, but I only did so because of the platform being discussed. I appreciate any understanding and leniency you show me for this violation.
 
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GRIZ22 said:
Okay. I said this earlier. Staying within the question a 357 will do fine.

A 158 gr 357 that gives you 1500 in a 6" revolver will give you 1800fps in a 16" barrel. Explosive expansion but will still give you an entrance and exit wound. Yes a 44 will make a bigger hole but do you need it?
Click to expand...
I use Buffalo Bore 180gr and comes out of the barrel at almost 1800. I hate thinking of what it would be like to be hit with that.
 
In answer to your question, the nearest loaded one.

To be honest, any "defensive" situation is going to be pretty close quarters, so a short 16 or 20 inch carbine in 357 should do the business. I have lever guns in calibers from .22 to .303 Savage, and any of them would be just fine for protecting the home front. Speaking for myself, I think I would prefer a scattergun over a rifle in 99% of cases. But as I've never been in such a situation, I really can't say for certain.

Mac
 
Any lever action rifle would be way down on my list. Hollywood has tainted our views on how effective they are with all of the cowboy movies and TV shows many of us grew up watching.

But I could make do with most any with a 20" or shorter barrel. If a 30-30 were what I had I'd use it, but the versions chambered in a pistol cartridge would be a better option.
 
If I were looking for a defensive lever gun I would look for one that was very opinionated, argumentative, and rarely waited long enough before responding instinctively to hear the reasoning behind an interlocutor’s differing opinions.

But seriously, I am one who sits around and thinks of these things as well, short barreled (16”) lever guns are pretty great for close quarters which applies out of the home as well. While I’m not encouraging anyone to look for or even follow trouble, and am more thinking camp defense (bears and stuff), self defense situations call for peering around corners and moving around objects. I defended camp from a bear with a scoped bolt action rifle and missed, from close range, twice. No one was hurt, including the bear.
Yes I had a tag. But that’s how I found that nimble is your friend in such situations.
 
For use in a repressive jurisdiction, Jeff Cooper recommended the Manhattan Carbine, a lever action .357; or a Brooklyn Carbine in .30-30.

Mike Venturino wrote of attending a carbine class with a .38-40 lever action in a sea of ARs.
Magazine dumps not being taught, he had no problem keeping up with a coat pocket of ammo. While the automatic shooters were looking for their magazines on the ground, he was just topping up at every lull in the action.
 
Chief TC said:
I use Buffalo Bore 180gr and comes out of the barrel at almost 1800. I hate thinking of what it would be like to be hit with that.
Click to expand...
I'm happy with a 158 jhp at 17-1800 fps. You drive those 357 bullets at hyper velocities they will explode so rapidly penetration will be lost.
 
Whatever modern equivalent(s), of what Actually was used in "those" days, possibly realistically depicted in this movie.

I included this movie because it has been both my favorite movie theme song and western movie since we first saw it around age seven (1962).

MacAR mentioned "...the nearest loaded one". 💀 Maybe these lever actions can work ok in a defensive role?
 
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jmr40 said:
Any lever action rifle would be way down on my list. Hollywood has tainted our views on how effective they are with all of the cowboy movies and TV shows many of us grew up watching.

But I could make do with most any with a 20" or shorter barrel. If a 30-30 were what I had I'd use it, but the versions chambered in a pistol cartridge would be a better option.
Click to expand...
My opinions on the effectiveness of leverguns has nothing to do with Hollywood but actual use. But then this is the same person who thinks the .30-30 is more effective than the .45/70.
 
I have a couple lever actions but neither would sit on defensive home duty unless I had no other option. Either will work, but I have stuff that works better against 2 legged vermin. Closest my lever guns get to the role is when the hogs rut through the back property and need a culling or two to move on to destroy someone's else's woods.

If push comes to shove and I had to move to a Lever gun it would not be in a normal hunting caliber like my other levers. A 357 or 410 Henry would likely be my choice.
 
My initial reactions to your query...

1. Any lever gun caliber would suffice except maybe .22, and then there are those that would say its OK.
2. Choice of sights would largely be irrelevant since it would be point and shoot. (I use the Skinner peep)
3. A shorter, more compact rifle would be better. Quicker to handle, aim, and fire...
4, Given the 10 round plus capacity of my .45(LC) I would feel well served.
 
Personal, and decidedly humble opinion, really hate to booger up a classic lever with modern 'tacticool' stuff.
A b-flat lever makes a fair defensive arm; as others have said, simply shooting over the barrel would work. Love tang sights for any distance, but fast n' nasty inside the house is another matter.
Caliber? My deer rifle is a .44 mag 94 Marlin, and it put down deer like the hand of God. But it is more than you need for defense...my .45 Colt handloads make half inch holes. It should be relatively quiet inside the house, and it holds 10 rounds.
The lack of a mounted light is the biggest weakness; a chunk of Picatinny rail is back to that 'boogering' thing.
Thus far, we in Westsylvania haven't had to make such choices. Do I remember the Aussies banning any kind of repeating rifle, levers included?
Moon
 
Oninotaki said:
On to the three major reasons why I think .410 is the best defensive chambering for a levergun.

1st: Capacity. The various defensive lever platforms (model x, Marlin dark, etc) in .357, 44 mag, and 45 colt all seem to have a capacity of around 7 rounds. The Henry Model X in .410 has 6. While that is one less round, it can use buck shot. .410 buckshot in 2.5" chamberings tend to have 4 000 buck pellets. So to me it's more like having a capacity of 24.
Click to expand...

If referring to a 20" barreled lever shotgun, might as well compare to a 20" rifled barrel lever gun. Henry claims 6 in the tube for the shotgun and 10 in the tube for the 20" barreled .357.

Other lever guns may be somewhat misrepresented by the factory for whatever reason. Fer instance, the current Marlin 1894 in .44 mag claims 6 rounds fit in the tube of a 20" barrel. Which is a glaring difference from what the gun was spec'd to hold in the past. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/rifleman-review-marlin-1894-in-44-mag/

Or, Ruger is doing what Remlin did and they're stuffing mag tube springs from rifle length tubes into their shorter barrel offerings.

My Remlin 1894 CSBL* is a perfect example. From the factory, I could only stuff six .357 cartridges into the tube. With some research, it became apparent the Remlin used the same magazine spring in many of their lever guns regardless of barrel (mag tube) length. Due to that, the mag spring would stack solid on itself with only 6 cartridges in the tube.

As I learned from others on the net, I trimmed the magazine tube spring to the proper length and my 16" barreled 1894 CSBL now holds eight .357 cartridges or nine .38 special cartridges. And it feeds perfectly through the last cartridge.

And there is this article with the correct mag tube capacities listed. https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/is-this-the-ultimate-lever-gun-for-self-defense/

*From a batch made near the end of Remington making Marlins. Earlier batches may have been different.
 
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I just saw this one in a classic firearms add, I think it would definitely fit the bill.
 

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Most are like this, and it is somewhat obvious, but I think it's still worth mentioning that given capacity issues, a side loading gate is a handy feature to have so that you can be topping off ammunition if needed.

Of course mainly a lever gun would be the sort of thing I'd use in a jurisdiction with no semiautos. If I wanted a less-scary looking rifle than the ubiquitous AR-15 but didn't have that limitation, I'd just get a Mini-14.
 
chicharrones said:
If referring to a 20" barreled lever shotgun, might as well compare to a 20" rifled barrel lever gun. Henry claims 6 in the tube for the shotgun and 10 in the tube for the 20" barreled .357.

Other lever guns may be somewhat misrepresented by the factory for whatever reason. Fer instance, the current Marlin 1894 in .44 mag claims 6 rounds fit in the tube of a 20" barrel. Which is a glaring difference from what the gun was spec'd to hold in the past. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/rifleman-review-marlin-1894-in-44-mag/

Or, Ruger is doing what Remlin did and they're stuffing mag tube springs from rifle length tubes into their shorter barrel offerings.

My Remlin 1894 CSBL* is a perfect example. From the factory, I could only stuff six .357 cartridges into the tube. With some research, it became apparent the Remlin used the same magazine spring in many of their lever guns regardless of barrel (mag tube) length. Due to that, the mag spring would stack solid on itself with only 6 cartridges in the tube.

As I learned from others on the net, I trimmed the magazine tube spring to the proper length and my 16" barreled 1894 CSBL now holds eight .357 cartridges or nine .38 special cartridges. And it feeds perfectly through the last cartridge.

And there is this article with the correct mag tube capacities listed. https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/is-this-the-ultimate-lever-gun-for-self-defense/

*From a batch made near the end of Remington making Marlins. Earlier batches may have been different.
Click to expand...
Nope I was referencing the Henry Model X which lists a 7 round capacity for all the pistol caliber models, and I choose those since they have the furniture that easily accepts the lights and lasers that people associate with home defense use.

www.henryusa.com

Big Boy X Model | Henry Repeating Arms

Creating the mold and then breaking out of it is something that we take great pride in. It’s how we progress and continue pushing the boundaries of what lever actions are capable of. The Big Boy X Model does just that and marks an evolutionary step in a product line with quite the pedigree...
www.henryusa.com www.henryusa.com
 
chicharrones said:
Click to expand...

I'll give this guy credit
At least he knows how to properly shoot,
and not take the gun down at every shot
and look down at it while working the
action
I bet 50% ( probably more) of the people
i see at ranges take the gun down and
look at it ( regardless of action type)

How did such a p*** poor slovenly
habit get ingrained into the formerly
talented marksmen we used to have?
 
I went thru a lever action 3 day course from a famous now deceased trainer. 400 rounds ; 150 first two days ,100 last day. I took a Marlin 16 " carbine with Ashley big dot sights and an AimPoint Patrolrifle 4 moa red dot in quick release mounts
Brought 500 rounds of 130 grain FMJ .38 special that had proven to feed very well in the Tuned first year production model 94 Marlin which was my truck gun in California a few years
After the first day I thought my right thumb was going to fall off from keep the tube filled. On the second day my shooting partner switched guns with me and I used his 16" Winchester big loop 94 in 30-30 with 150 grain silvertip and a Lyman peep with no insert - a ghost ring . The longer 3030 Ammo actually seems easier to load, however it took a little longer, he was stuffing in two .38s in my Marlin to one 30-30 in his 94. His big loop felt better to me to work fast.Note I shoot a .45 Colt Uberti Winchester model 1873 short rifle in cowboy action but used to shoot a Winchester 1892 32-20)
Anyway the 30-30 kicked quite a bit harder of course but at 100 yards max range we shot grouped about same as the .38 with Red dot Marlin . We qualified with our own guns on Sunday and I outshot my friend, as I usually do. My thumb and right hand was in agony for a few days after.
 
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Oninotaki said:
Nope I was referencing the Henry Model X which lists a 7 round capacity for all the pistol caliber models, and I choose those since they have the furniture that easily accepts the lights and lasers that people associate with home defense use.

www.henryusa.com

Big Boy X Model | Henry Repeating Arms

Creating the mold and then breaking out of it is something that we take great pride in. It’s how we progress and continue pushing the boundaries of what lever actions are capable of. The Big Boy X Model does just that and marks an evolutionary step in a product line with quite the pedigree...
www.henryusa.com www.henryusa.com
Click to expand...

Since you wrote "(model X, Marlin Dark, etc)", I certainly figured your comment was open to other brands.

Apparently, Henry's have a tube mag limitation due to that crossbreed mag that loads from the side and dumps out the front. That 17.4" .357 Henry would hold 9 if it had a mag tube like what other centerfire gun makers provide.

Of course if someone doesn't want a Henry X, there are light mounts available as seen in post #1 for lever guns with long top rails.

Not to mention that Midwest Industries and Ranger Point sell M-Lok forends for those that want to add them to their lever guns as seen in that video two posts above. A pretty nifty solution for folks that have an old lever gun and want to push it into the 21st century.
 
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I took a sneak peek at MidwayUSA to get an idea of what you are talking about, and the first thing that threw me off is the price tag. Wow, lever action rifles are not cheap. Of the 357/44 mag versions, the cheapest was the Rossi bare bones version at $650.
Having said that, I see no reason a lever action rifle or carbine wouldn't be useful. It's been brought up that the magazine can be topped off during any lull, what we call a 'tactical reload" without having to change mags. However, there are levers that do take detachable magazines, like the one pictured above, or the one I saw at Midway, Henry Long Ranger with 5+1 detachable mag in 5.56mm. Just throwing that out there.
If I was in a restrictive state or city, ( I see the Colonels reference to the Brooklyn carbine has already surfaced, as his recommendation for a defensive firearm in a very restrictive area), I would feel better with a nice lever action loaded with some good 38 Special ammo. Why .38? With the velocity increase from the barrel length, maybe +P .38s will get .357 Mag velocity and still look nicer in court, "Yer Honor, it's just a 38!" Don't know if it would get another round in the mag or not.
Interesting discussion. Edit to add this Citadel version seems to hit all the high points brought up here.
www.midwayusa.com

Citadel Levtac 92 Lever Action Rifle 44 Remington Mag 16.5 Barrel

High quality components and precise manufacturing make Citadel firearms ideal for both new shooters and experienced gun owners. The...
www.midwayusa.com www.midwayusa.com
 
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