What model Smith do I have?

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Josey, I appreciate your help, but I'm going to have to disappoint you here. My family and I are going out of town for the Father's Day weekend, and I won't be home to look at it again until Sunday. I'll look at the patent list on the barrel then.
 
Oral histories on guns are often off on dates and ages due to faulty recollections. Your grandfather may have bought this gun "sometime after 1900" but it would have had to be about 40 years after 1900.

Your gun is indeed a 1905 4th change Military & Police (M&P). These were made from 1915 to 1945 and your serial number would indicate a manufacturing date of 1940 or 1941. It appears to have a 5 inch barrel. They were also made with 2, 4, and 6 inch barrels in blue and nickel. These were made in both .38 S&W (for England) and in .38 S&W Special.

The finish on your gun looks a little rough and it probably has more value as a family heirloom than it does in terms of money. A gun like this can be bought for $75 to $200. I have two of these, a 5 inch blued one that had been reblued and cost me $75 about 3 years ago and a 6 inch nickeled pistol in maybe 75% condition with genuine pearl grips I bought at Christmas for $165.

These are really classic pistols but they made a million of them. Really, the serial numbers on the pre-war M&Ps run from 1 to 1,000,000. So they are not rare. Have a smith take a quick look at it and if he OKs shoot the hell out of it and remember grandpa when you shoot it.
 
thatguy...

"Your gun is indeed a 1905 4th change Military & Police (M&P). These were made from 1915 to 1945 and your serial number would indicate a manufacturing date of 1940 or 1941."

Please take another look at the serial number. It is a five-digit number. For your statement to be true it would have to be a six-digit number.
 
The Old Fuff has refrained from jumping into this one because the lack of definitive background information and photographs were lacking. In the meantime he has noticed a lot of wild speculation and occasionally some gross errors of fact.

This very interesting revolver is a Smith & Wesson model 1905 Hand Ejector; 1st or 2nd change. The difference between them is a second dowel pin in the cylinder to guide and support the extractor star. The 1st change had one, and the 2nd change had two. The 1905 H.E. was also known as the “Military & Police†model, and were more often referred to by that name then the 1905 designation. The “38 S&W Special CTG and U.S. Service CTG†barrel marking was used as late as 1910, and perhaps longer.

Both of these “changes†were made in a time frame of 1906 through 1909, within a serial number range running from 73251 through 146899. Obviously the “oral history†isn’t too far off.

The walnut grips do not have trademark medallions, and are of a pattern used on this model revolver between approximately 1903 through 1910. (Take good care of them, replacements are almost impossible to find).

I would estimate that the gun was made during 1906 or ’07, but as FPrice has noted the only way to confirm this is through a letter from S&W factory historian, Roy Jinks. The charge for such a letter is $30.00 and considering the amount of research involved is very reasonable.

The belt and holster rig are not contemporary to the gun. They were made by the Hunter Company which is now located in Westminster, CO. sometime from the 1950’s onward to the present. For those that worry about such things, most holsters made during the early 1900’s did cover the trigger guard.
 
>> Have a smith take a quick look at it and if he OKs shoot the hell out of it and remember grandpa when you shoot it. <<

Given this revolvers age, the fact that at the time cylinders were not heat treated, and that replacement parts for a 1905 H.E./1st or 2nd change are difficult to find, and expensive when they are; I would strongly suggest that you don't follow this advice. If you do shoot it use nothing more powerful then STANDARD 158 gr. lead bulleted cartridges. Those currently being offered for Cowboy Action Shooting would also be a good choice because they are down-loaded to original specifications.
 
Good call on the Hunter holster, Fuff. It is stamped with the company name.

I'm still not quite clear on the dowel pins, but the extractor rod only has one channel on it to keep it from spinning in the cylinder, if that's what you're talking about.

I am going to send a request to Mr. Jinks very soon, and thanks for all the help, guys.

Gun still shoots fine, by the way! And yes, I've only ever used light loads in it, and hardly ever shoot it at all, but it's still completely functional.
 
When you open the cylinder look at the extractor star. In the web area between the chambers you should see a small hole with a pin in it. There may be one or two such small holes, and if there are two they will be opposite of each other. When you push on the extractor rod to lift the extractor the pins will stay in the cylinder and you will then clearly see the one or two holes in the extractor star. As the holes are small you may need to do this in good light. It is possible the pin(s) have broken off, but the hole(s) should remain in the extractor star. The purpose of these pins and holes were to support and align the extractor.
 
Hmm, so the pins are mounted in the cylinder and fill holes in the star? I don't remember seeing anything like that, but I'll take a close look on Sunday. Maybe they broke off and stuck in the star...
 
OK! My opinion. This IS a S&W, Model of 1905 Hand Ejector. I feel it is later than 1914 manufacture OR a factory refurb. Was your family member involved in Civil Defense or plant security, draft board or other WWII homefront agencies? I think this is a parkerized WWII refurb that likely was issued as a duty weapon. Was your family member a reserve deputy sheriff or county/city attorney? A judge possibly? CAS lead loads with 158 gr bullets would give the safest and best performance.
 
Josey:

The serial number is correct for a revolver made in 1906 or 1907

The barrel marking is correct for a gun made at this time.

The pattern of the walnut grips are correct for a revolver made from 1903 to approximately 1910.

In the pictures this gun appears to be blued - which would be correct for the expected time period or 1906 or 1907.

The oral history in the family is that grandpa had the gun during the early 19th century.

So what makes you think it's a 1940's rework???
 
I may have bad eyes but, look at the trigger and hammer. My eyes see them as BLUED. I believe they were CCHd from the S&W factory. ?
 
I never was good with numbers. I did miscount the digits in the serial and the gun is from an earlier date. I don't have the book open but certainly before 1915. My goof. As noted this early gun is not tempered.
 
You can see one of the ratchet indexing pins (dowels) at about the 2 o'clock position.
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There is a second one located 180º, but it's hard to see.
and I'm too lazy to take a better pic.


edited to add - OK not too lazy after all
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You can see both pins (dowels) on this one.




By the way, Old Fuff has nailed the identification.



If you look at the photo of the serial number you can tell the gun was not parkerized. I enlarged the photos and looked closely at the trigger and hammer and my opinion is that they are worn and faded but nonetheless are colour-case-hardened.
 

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Thanks Blues Bear! The overal roughness of the finish made me believe it was refinished. It didn't appear to be high gloss to my eyes.
 
Guys, it was blued, but the surface rust makes it kinda hard to tell in the pictures. The trigger and hammer do look like CCH. And I swear I've never seen those pins. I'm almost home, so I'll look tonight.

Edit: Ok, I droppped by the house to pick something up. No dowel pins in the cylinder. None, not even broken off. Also, the points at the end of the star are rounded off, with matching metal on the cylinder. I'll try to get close-up pics tonight, even though my camera doesn't focus well in macro closeups.
 
Those rounded star tips indicate it's an early one alright.

There's still a lot of colour in that trigger. :)


grimlock, of you'd pull the camera back about 2" everything would be in good focus.
 
According to Supica & Nahas, that gun was almost surely made in 1906. I have one virtually identical except for factory work stamp (probably refinish), with serial number in the 91000 range. It, too, was probably made in 1906, perhaps 1907, and it still doesn't have extractor pins. Also, of course, doesn't have a safety bar.

Not sure I understand the problem with the barrel markings. Mine also says

38 S.&W. SPECIAL
& U.S. SERVICE CTG'S

Is there some reason it shouldn't say this?
 
Awesome work, guys. Thanks. I'll be sending Mr. Jinks some mail soon, and I'll post the results to this thread when I get my letter.
 
grimlock:

At the time your revolver was made (most likely in 1906) S&W was making many small changes in their model 1905 revolver to improve it. At the same time they were using up older parts rather then scrap them. Because these were for the most part small changes, revolvers with the older parts might at times be intermixed with those with later improvements, as both styles were in production within a limited time period.

Your cylinder (without the pins) is representative of this situation, and is entirely correct. I will offer a more detailed explanation in a later post when I get the time. Your revolver may have some other unique features that will surprise you.

Model520Fan:

No there isn't a problem. The barrel marking is correct for a revolver made when yours was. Some others mistaking thought that this marking indicated an earlier model.
 
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