What other civilian rifles use M-1 carbine .30 rounds?

[Ignition Override]

I have limited experience with guns (considering my age), having fired my .22 Savage single-shot rifle or a buddy's pistol into the Wolf River since '85, or only a few times at ranges which interest me little (mostly only paper targets allowed-one is now closed).

Having read various rifle threads here and via Wikipedia etc, my interest seems to be in either an M-1 carbine, due to the large clips available with lower-cost rounds, or in a similar gun which can be reloaded quickly, provided that the clips hold many rounds. A much more powerful M-1 Garand or Belgian FN FAL is quite attractive (having discovered YouTube), but would be not only much more expensive, but so would the ammo for the basic purpose of practice shooting.

The M-1 Garand appears to possibly require a bit more time to reload a fresh 8-round magazine than with an M-1 carbine, if needed in a serious situation (2nd topic-below). But the Garand ammo might be much easier to locate in a store or among neighbors near here-all else being equal (2nd topic).

I might join a gun range which has pop-up targets.

2nd topic:
Were we ever to suffer in the aftermath of a serious New Madrid Fault earthquake (living just outside the city) or whichever, a gun which is suitable for shorter ranges and can fire numerous hollow-point rounds before reloading might have its benefits.
In New Orleans (or in Gulfport/Biloxi MS) during the nightmarish Katrina aftermath, gun stores were broken into and probably had no ammo or guns left within about a day or two. Just getting to a gun store near, or in this nearby city after a disaster might prove quite dangerous or impossible-even with full tanks of gasoline.

I began a similar thread back in September. Again, any advice not only regarding .30 carbine ammo but views on assault rifles versus carbines and the price difference of the rounds is certainly welcome, whether as advice, sarcasm, criticism, whatever-no sweat.
Sure, a carbine round does not compare to a large .30 Win./7.62 X 51 etc. someone in the previous thread stated that there are some fairly cheap Greek NATO 7.62 rounds available.
Maybe these issues are too broad to categorize in limited space. But as some guys say elsewhere on the Internet regarding the under-appreciated (?) M-1 carbine, if you miss the target, or must reload sooner with a more powerful gun, a heavier round is no help in a life-or-death situation if you miss or run out of ammo.

So far, I am impressed by the contributors on this website. Everyone appears to be level-headed, responsible and sincere. This is not always the case regarding other sites with totally different topics. I would rather ramble here but learn something from you guys/gals, no matter how deep my ignorance.

 

[mp510]

Marlin made a very modern lever action, the Model 62 Levermatic, in the 1960s, and they chambered it in .30 Carbine. They are very accurate and are drilled and tapped for scope mounts. They are very accurate, very slick rifles. However, magazines are hard to find and expensive, and low capacity.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/malloy.htm

Pretty sure TC makes or made a .30 carbine Contender barrel too.

 

[mp510]

Also, Ruger makes a .30 Carbine Single Action revolver; Taurus made a Double Action revolver; AMT made a semi auto pistol; and Universal and Iver Johnson made Enforcer pistols- which were large pistols based on the M-1 carbine action.

This could give you some ability to use the caliber in pistol platforms as well.

 

[foghornl]

I can relaod my M1 Garand with the 8-rounds en-block clips faster than any of my other rifles...Either the SKS 10-round stripper clips or the Mosin-Nagant M-44 with the 5-round strippers.

Never mind how long it takes to stuff 5 rounds one-at-a-time in my Mossberg ATR-100.

Now, the 25-round Butler Creek Steel Lips magazines for my Ruger 10/22 hold a lot of ammo, but it still takes longer to drop out the empty and stuff in a fresh mag than it does to drop in a new M1 Garand en-bloc clip...The M1 ejects the empty clip for you automatically

I gotta get one of those M1 Carbine "War Baby" guns, and a .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk.

 

[DMK]

M1 carbine isn't a really common round actually. And when you do find it, it's kind of expensive. I think the charm was with the rifle itself, not as much the round. Even the rifles themselves aren't very cheap anymore.

I own a very nice M1 Carbine. While it is very compact, ammo availability has disappointed me. I'm not sure I'd trust FMJ to do the job in this caliber.

Personally, I think a Mini-14 or AR15 would be more appropriate for what you are talking about.

 

[benEzra]

Based on your criteria, you'd probably be happier in the long run with an AR-15, Kel-Tec SU-16, Ruger mini-14 (new or recent production, not the older rifles), or a civilian AK variant. They are a smidgen more powerful than .30 carbine, but not by a whole lot, offer somewhat better ballistics at longer ranges, and ammunition is cheaper and more widely available.

 

[alsaqr]

"Also, Ruger makes a .30 Carbine Single Action revolver;:

Yes, they do: i have a Blackhawk in .30 carbine. That is absolutely the loudest gun i have ever fired.

 

[Ignition Override]

Thank you.

Having just read through some websites, covering the traits of various ammo and a good comparison of the AR-15 versus the Ruger Mini-14, how about ammo? The guy claimed that they are quite competitive with each other, depending upon personal preference. As for the M-1 Carbine, there appears to be limited .30 ammo. I had no luck finding it in the better local gunstore today, and don't know how much more the rounds cost compared to anything.
Most (20 rounds per?) boxes of the .270, 30-06, .308 etc were about $15.00.

Someone in this thread mentioned a problem with .30 carbine FMJ ammo stopping a live threat, as if no hollow-point or other type is readily available.

Is the Mini-14 (5.56 X ** NATO) ammo the same as most .223 rounds used by the highly-popular AR-15/CAR/M-16? The simplicity of the Mini appeals to me, although the guy claimed that large clips could be costly.

How about these with hollow-point or soft lead bullets? Being civilian weapons, these should be legal.
If so, does Winchester or another American company manufacture all types of 5.56/.223 for the AR and Mini 14?

 

[Outlaws]

.30 Carbine is neat, but far from economical. Prices vary from store to store by a LARGE amount. Once shop might have a box of 50 for $15-20, and another shop might want upwards of $30 for the exact same box...and this was before the price increases over the last year or so. I don't even want to know what they charge now. Its still cheaper than many rifles rounds since they are per box of 20, but for what amounts to a pistol round, that is/was a lot.

You want an 16" AR or an AK. ...just based on the situation of an earthquake aftermath.

 

[lmccrock]

Olympic Arms used to make an AR-platform .30 carbine. Seems to be gone from the current catalog. Downside is you would have as much money in it and magazines and ammo are not cheaper than for an AR15 in 5.56.

Mini-14 is cheaper, but the AR15 platform is more accurate and GOOD 30-round magazines can be had for $10-15. Hard to find GOOD Mini-14 mags in that price range.

5.56 is close enough to .223 as to be the same.

Reloading an AR is quick and does not require removing your strong hand from the gun. M1 rifle reloads are not shabby since there is no empty mag to dump; the clip ejects. However, my right (strong side) does the reload. A bit of a disadvantage. M1 Carbine....not fast at all.

I do not dislike the M1 Carbine or its cartridge - I have a Saginaw USGI carbine, and one from Universal, plus Blackhawk and Automag III handguns. Yes, the handguns DO attract attention at the range. Especially indoor ranges.

Lee

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Go for the Carbine

While these days it's common to eschew the M1 Carbine in favor of an AR15 or an AK for social purposes, if you've decided you like and want an M1, don't get another rifle based on someone else's opinion. Few guns are as fun to shoot as an M1 Carbine, and with the ease of ordering ammo online you can build up a good supply without leaving the house.

My first choic would be a good condition USGI Carbine. Second would be one of the new Kahr/Auto Ordnance Carbines, which have the advantage of a warranty. Next would be a Plainfield or Iver Johnson commercial copy. Personally, I would not buy a Universal since they are not direct copies of GI Carbines and most parts don't interchange.

For target shooting/plinking/practice, use FMJ ammo or handloads with hard cast or plated bullets. Based on gelatin testing, the best rounds for defense appear to be Remington 110 grain JSPs. Some Carbines have problems feeding JSPs so make sure yours does before investing in a stash.

Here's some gratuitous M1 Carbine porn for you:

Rock Ola wearing an Ultimak rail, Surefire G2, and Bushnell red dot:



Older pic of the Rock Ola in a different stock, alongside an Underwood in a repro M1A1 stock:

 

[Ignition Override]

All of your info. is interesting.
Dave: nice photos and website.

How about the reliability of a new AR-15 versus the M-1 carbine or Ruger mini 14? Are either hollow-point or soft lead bullets available for all of these? Does an AR-15's alleged extra complexity (compared to the mini 14) lead to problems if the chamber and barrel is cleaned often?

How about reliability of the Ruger Mini in .30 caliber (I've never seen one, and it requires the Russian 7.62 X 39)?

Went today to the local Bass Pro Shop. It not only has various common hunting ammo but also has the British .303, Russian 7.62 x 39, Mauser 7 and 8 mm, plus the Swedish 6.5.

 

[Crunker1337]

Don't forget the AMT Automag III!
http://www.highstandard.com/

 

[Davo]

I always thought a Tommygun would work well in .30 carbine...kinda like an American PPSH

 

[Dan Forrester]

I have quite a bit of experience with all three of these weapons listed.

Mini-14s are ok weapons, but are absolutely not designed for sustained heavy rapid fire. I would not want to dump more than a mag or two through one of these guns. The gun heats up fast, cools down slow, and the groups get ridiculous after the first mag. Speaking of mags, unless you are willing to pay $50 for Ruger factory 20 round mags don’t bother. All other Mini-14 mags are garbage. I’ve owned 3 Mini-14 over the years and one Mini-30 and they are all plagued by the mag problem. Overall I would describe the Mini-14 rifle as fragile, and not designed for serious use. Plinking, or hunting is just fine, but I wouldn’t use it for much more than that.

Except of the mag issue all of the above applies to nearly all of the AR manufacturers. Quickly dump 5-6 mags through most brands of ARs (RRA, Bushmaster, Olympic) and they will start to fail. This is no problem if you are just a plinker. If your looking for a home defense weapon it probably wont matter either since you will likely take care of the situation with a couple rounds. But if you are looking for a SHTF weapon I would look the Colt LE line, or the LMT. Cost of these guns isn’t really that much more than the budget guns and they perform when it really counts.

My dad has an M1 carbine. It seems like a nice little carbine. Super light and handy gun. While I would definitely steer you away form a Mini-14 I wouldn’t necessarily advise against an M1 carbine. Having said that I really don’t have much experience with them so really cant say. A little 10.5 inch barreled LMT AR-15 would probably be in the same weight range and offer better performance however. Ignore all the comments on the .30 carbines lack of stopping power. It is more than sufficient.

I highly recommend you search Bartholomew Roberts posts on AR-15s. This guy really seems to know what he’s talking about.

Also based on your criteria I would also look into semi auto AK-47s While not for my needs, they are wonderful guns and a great place to start.

Dan

 

[goon]

If you like the Carbine, why not get one? Guns are really personal choices and we all have our preferences.
Look at it this way - if something ever really did go wrong you couldn't count on going down to Wal-Mart to buy more ammo anyhow. You would be stuck with what you had. Eventhough .30 Carbine isn't as cheap as some others, I have never seen it sold completely out either. You can usually find a couple boxes in about any gunstore. On paper, .223 and 7.62x39 are supposed to be more common but I have seen them completely sold out during buying frenzies. The .30 is not in as high of demand so it doesn't seem to suffer from that problem.
Other considerations - if you are just looking for a long arm for a short range type of use, maybe a Beretta Storm or semi auto UZI? What about a Marlin 1894 in 357 magnum (which can also shoot .38 SPL)? If you want to try for real versatility, there is always the option of a good 12 or 20 gauge pump action shotgun too.

For the AR-15's, they are a lot more durable than they get credit for. With proper maintenance an AR should be very reliable.

Hollowpoint ammo is available for the 5.56mm (AR-15 and Mini 14) and 7.62x39mm (mini 30, AK, and SKS). Soft point ammo is also available for them and the .30 carbine as well.

Other questions - how much you looking to spend? And how far is the longest shot you can imagine taking? Do you live in a populated area or in the sticks? Give us a little more info because some guns do certain tasks better than others.

 

[mattw]

I have an M1 Carbine and its a blast. The ammo is actually not all that cheap compared to .223. I would look into a Ruger mini 14 or a keltec su-16 if I were you.

All hail the mighty Wolf River! Many an empty beer can has met its watery grave in that magnificent waterway. A Mississippi summer is just not complete without Budweiser, Skoal, firearms, and the Wolf River.

 

[mp510]

I have an M1 Carbine and its a blast. The ammo is actually not all that cheap compared to .223. I would look into a Ruger mini 14 or a keltec su-16 if I were you.

They're really pretty similarly priced.

Cabelas Charges about $15 or $16/ box for .30 Carbine (Sellior & Bellot 110 grain FMJ). They charge $6.99 per 20 Sellior and Bellot 55 grain 5.56. I think that the .30 Carbine may actually be a couple cents per round cheaper- that said- the pruice is ballpark same- go with whatever you like most.

 

[rodregier]

Store availability of ammunition is nice, but if you're looking at SHTF situations, stocking up beforehand is the only way to go.

The AR15 pattern is much easier to clean than the Mini-14, IMHO.
I've owned both, and I still have the AR15 pattern rifle.

The new production Mini-14 is supposed to be better, the old ones would just shoot patterns (not groups) as they heat up - the other major reason why I sold my Mini-14 years ago.

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks.

About three days ago the more knowledgeable gun salesmen in a Bass Pro Shop told me that he was most unhappy with his Mini 14 and sold it.

Today, in a different, large 'outdoors' type store in North Dakota a former Navy Handgun Instructor ( another customer) told me that his mini was junk or such.

By the way, that store has original Lee-Enfield rifles and one Springfield 1903 30-06. They might have an old Swedish rifle, and a Mannlicher (Carcano or other?) rifle and various older guns in the side room.
Ja-nice collection, don't ya know?

 

[smee781]

If you are looking for ammo after the fact it is allready to late. It dosent matter what gun you have, if you don't have ammo stocked up for it all you have is a club. Get what ever gun you want and be happy with it and practice practice parctice. In the real world the gun you need is the gun you shoot well.

 

[Slugless]

IgOv,

Regarding your question on ammo / reliability,

I'd expect the Mini-14 to digest most anything you put through it. As has been said before, magazine reliability is the main problem. The one I'm familiar with has been super reliable. Just hideously inaccurate after the first shot.

Magazines have been the main problem for my Bushmasters. I'll never buy another green follower magazine again.

The other failure to feed on the Bushmaster M-4gery was with hollowpoint .223s. I switched a mail order of 5.56 from soft point to FMJ because I really really hate failure to feeds and I figure if a hollowpoint can do it, a soft point probably can as well. I've not yet tried softpoints but would like to, just didn't want 500 rounds of potential failures.

I wouldn't count on my ARs to digest hollowpoints or softpoints but these rounds would definitely mess somebody up.

(relatively) cheap ammo is a plus 'cause you'll want to practice practice practice. Good thing you've already got a .22.

And Ja, the Swede it's nice.

Anybody else care to comment on ammo-related failure to feeds on AR's?

 

[Slugless]

DarkTranq,

Hey man, care to elaborate on the cause of failures of second-water ARs when burning through 5 - 6 mags quickly? I don't shoot mine that hard but would like to know what might go wrong....

 

[Dan Forrester]

Most failures seem to be related to the bolt and it’s fit to the locking lugs in the chamber. As the gun heats up these tolerances change and the bolt doesn’t close fully. I’ve seen a coupe DPMS bolts crack where the bolt cam pin connects it to the carrier. This is the weakest point in the ar15 bolt. These problems get worse as the gun heats up either do to rapid fire (5 or more mags real fast) or firing suppressed (which is nearly all of my shooting). Most people never take a carbine course, or do any rapid shooting so these problems never crop up.

For mags make sure your using real USGI mags. I like Okay industries magazines the best. I’ve gone through quite a few of them over the years and these are my favorite.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3725725#post3725725


Is your bushmaster a factory gun? Bushmaster sells striped lowers also. Someone could have bought the cheapest parts kit and put it onto a Bushmaster lower and sold it off for a profit. What kind of magazine related failures are you experiencing?

Dan

 

[Slugless]

Sorry for the off-topic subject although it is tangentially related to IgOv's questions....

Bolts cracking? I've been wondering what type of failures the milspec shot peening is intended to prevent.

I've done the non-GI 20 round mags, threw 'em away. Bought some green follower "USGI spec" 20 round mags from Centerfire systems. Threw 'em away. The failures are two types:

1. The magazine fails to properly retain the bullet. When loading the magazine, at 2 or 3 rounds into the fill, the bullet on top pops out. Also happens when unloading the magazine through the barrel (to paraphrase a naval term....)
2. The follower seems to tilt excessively, binding and preventing the cartridge from rising properly.

I don't know if the two types are manifestations of the same problem, but it is consistent with every green follower mag I've tried.

Every gray follower mag has worked perfectly, even some surplus with a lot of exterior wear. I have a couple C products black follower but they're a bit picky on how you insert the very first round, not a good thing in a stress situation.

I've been buying mags from Bushmaster lately and they work perfectly every time. Unfortunately their new curved 20 rounders don't fit in my Daewoo, which is annoying.

The Bushmaster is a factory rifle. I don't know if polishing the ramp would help feed hollowpoints or softpoints, it's pretty shiny already. Worked on a pistol of mine, though.

-Douglas